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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Neither can you “complain about anything being wrong or immoral”. Your so-called objective morals of “God" were simply the subjective moral values of the day written by men and ascribed to their tribal deity to enforce compliance. Even then, they have been interpreted and adapted to conform to current moral values, e.g. the role of women in society.
    And yet we have a basis for morality and you don't. So your whining about "informed consent" and whether pedophilia is immoral is nothing but your personal opinion, based on your preferences and has no authority on anyone else. If a Pedophile decides that informed consent is not needed and that having sex with children is OK, then there is nothing objectively wrong with it. It is just his preferences vs yours. It would be like you complaining that chocolate is evil and someone else saying chocolate is good.

    You have been wasting your time on Theologyweb arguing morals that you believe don't even exist for years. Keeping you here has been the biggest trolling campaign in history.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Yes, my typical response to an irrelevant post.
      Legally allowed consent of a minor is not irrelevant to a statement about the legal consent of a minor... indeed...
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke
        At what age does a child attain the maturity to provide informed consent?
        At whatever age society and the law decide, apparently. As Jimmy said, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Parents force children to do lots of things without informed consent. That's kind of their job. So "informed consent" doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality itself. It would be like saying a parent can't tell their child to go to bed at 9PM because the child can't give informed consent.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Parents force children to do lots of things without informed consent. That's kind of their job. So "informed consent" doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality itself. It would be like saying a parent can't tell their child to go to bed at 9PM because the child can't give informed consent.
            And what about medical care? It's up to the parents to provide consent on the child's behalf.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              And what about medical care? It's up to the parents to provide consent on the child's behalf.
              Kind of. When I was on the ambulance crew, when we worked on a child with no care giver around we did so under implied consent. That is by law we could treat a child without parental consent on the assumption that any reasonable parent would want their child treated. I would assume hosptial ERs would work under the same rules.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Of course all this begs the question. What if the adult with the "atypical sexual interest" is not unscrupulous and does not use trickery or deceit?
                Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  And yet we have a basis for morality and you don't.
                  Your basis for morality is exactly the same as for everyone else. It’s just that yours dates back to the subjective morality of a previous Age...the tribal era to be precise...and requires reinterpretation and adaptation to conform to current moral values, e.g. the role of women in society.

                  So your whining about "informed consent" and whether pedophilia is immoral is nothing but your personal opinion, based on your preferences and has no authority on anyone else.
                  Incorrect. They have the authority of the current social mores…as ‘moral’ values always have.

                  If a Pedophile decides that informed consent is not needed and that having sex with children is OK, then there is nothing objectively wrong with it. It is just his preferences vs yours.
                  No, it’s his preference vs that of current social values which have the force of Law to ensure compliance.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                    Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.
                    According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed, and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      At whatever age society and the law decide, apparently. As Jimmy said, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
                      And he has also argued defending NAMBLA's challenge to age of consent laws.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                        Your basis for morality is exactly the same as for everyone else. It’s just that yours dates back to the subjective morality of a previous Age...the tribal era to be precise...
                        According to the speculations of the History of Religions school, yes. Of course, they agree with your a priori belief that God is a fiction, so you uncritically espouse their views.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed,
                          Certainly. Just as laws repealing the abolition of slavery or a return to the discrimination of the Jim Crow era (both of which were supported scripturally by Baptists in the Deep South) could be overturned. But it’s highly unlikely.

                          and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
                          You witter on about “a solid, objective basis for moral thought”, but the origin of the biblical laws was no different than how society arrives at its moral values today. The only difference is that they were ascribed to a deity back then. But, there’s no good reason to think they were of divine origin. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is much more appropriate to today than the primitive values of the tribal era from which Christianity derives.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                            Certainly. Just as laws repealing the abolition of slavery or a return to the discrimination of the Jim Crow era (both of which were supported scripturally by Baptists in the Deep South) could be overturned. But it’s highly unlikely.
                            People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.

                            Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                            You witter on about “a solid, objective basis for moral thought”, but the origin of the biblical laws was no different than how society arrives at its moral values today. The only difference is that they were ascribed to a deity back then. But, there’s no good reason to think they were of divine origin. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is much more appropriate to today than the primitive values of the tribal era from which Christianity derives.
                            In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.
                              The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.

                              In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.
                              I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                                The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.
                                We've been over this already, this is a legal objection and not a moral one. Simply change the law, and this objection disappears.

                                Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                                I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.
                                Right, and if the "community" changes its mind regarding pedophilia, you have no grounds to object.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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