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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    And yet you still have not really found your way past the submission stuff.
    Actually, I have.

    I suppose the "anti-Christian bigot nannies" is a cover up for that?
    Absolutely not -- I answered in post #525... PATIENCE, Charles.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      The word "submit" does not imply subservience but support. My pastor describes it as the way a pillar serves in a submissive roll to hold up a roof. But notice that the roof could not stand without the support of the pillar.
      That interpretation is getting a bit tricky when we look at this part:

      Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
      I think where you get it wrong is when you say: "But notice that the roof could not stand without the support of the pillar." You would not say Christ could not stand without the church, would you? So the submission in your interpretation is certainly not the same though the text says "as the church submits"?
      Last edited by Charles; 02-16-2019, 12:01 PM.
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        So it changes things a whole lot from your perverse misunderstanding.
        My "perverse misunderstanding" which was that: "It may not allow for everything dependent on how you interpret "as the church submits to Christ" but it does not really challenge the idea that women should submit to their husbands."?
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          So, let’s try again. Why do you believe that women warrant extra courtesy than men in an age when they have equal rights and status in virtually every regard to men?
          Allow me to answer a question with a question. Why do you hold to the notion that "young children and babies fare better with their mothers", in an age when they men equal rights and status in virtually every regard to women*?



          *yes, I rearranged that last phrase, because - after all - there's no difference whatsoever, right?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Charles View Post
            My "perverse misunderstanding" which was that: "It may not allow for everything dependent on how you interpret "as the church submits to Christ" but it does not really challenge the idea that women should submit to their husbands."?
            How bout trying that again with a little less obfuscation?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Charles View Post
              That interpretation is getting a bit tricky when we look at this part:
              Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

              I think where you get it wrong is when you say: "But notice that the roof could not stand without the support of the pillar." You would not say Christ could not stand without the church, would you? So the submission is certainly not the same though it says "as the church submits"?
              Not really. As Jamieson Fausset Brown explains it in his famous commentary:

              "Submissiveness is rendered by the wife to the husband under the eye of Christ, and so is rendered to Christ Himself. The husband stands to the wife in the relation that the Lord does to the Church, and this is to be the ground of her submission: though that submission is inferior in kind and degree to that which she owes Christ." (Emphasis mine.)

              Also consider verse 21 which exhorts Christians in general to submit to one another. As Matthew Henry explains in his own commentary:

              "Here the apostle begins his exhortation to the discharge of relative duties. As a general foundation for these duties, he lays down that rule 21. There is a mutual submission that Christians owe one to another, condescending to bear one another's burdens: not advancing themselves above others, nor domineering over one another and giving laws to one another. Paul was an example of this truly Christian temper, for he 'became all things to all men'. We must be of a yielding and of a submissive spirit, and ready to all the duties of the respective places and stations that God has allotted to us in the world. 'In the fear of God', that is, so far as is consistent with the fear of God, for his sake, and out of conscience towards him, and that hereby we may give proof that we truly fear him. Where there is this mutual condescension and submission, the duties of all relations will be the better performed. From 22 to the end he speaks of the duties of husbands and wives; and he speaks of these in a Christian manner, setting the church as an example of the wife's subjection, and Christ as an example of love in husbands."
              Last edited by Mountain Man; 02-16-2019, 12:07 PM.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                ...Also consider verse 21 which exhorts Christians in general to submit to one another. As Matthew Henry explains in his own commentary:...
                I think that's a major part of this.... anti-Christian bigots see that world "submission" and they freak out, like THIS particularly idiotic post by Tassman...

                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Keeping women "barefoot and pregnant over the kitchen sink" is a traditional attitude too. So is keeping women subservient to men. Maintaining such traditions is not necessarily desirable...maybe for men, but not for women.
                "Submitting to one another" conforms to the "love chapter" (1 Cor 13) description of genuine love, and the general concept of Christians "preferring one another", or looking after the interests of others over ourselves.

                The anti-Christian bigots get hung up on their own version of "submit" with the absolute worst interpretation thereof.

                By the way, when we open a door for a woman, aren't we "submitting" to her, putting her before us?
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I think that's a major part of this.... anti-Christian bigots see that world "submission" and they freak out, like THIS particularly idiotic post by Tassman...



                  "Submitting to one another" conforms to the "love chapter" (1 Cor 13) description of genuine love, and the general concept of Christians "preferring one another", or looking after the interests of others over ourselves.

                  The anti-Christian bigots get hung up on their own version of "submit" with the absolute worst interpretation thereof.

                  By the way, when we open a door for a woman, aren't we "submitting" to her, putting her before us?
                  Their ignorance on these matters is inexcusable because there are many free resources they can use to help them understand the Bible. The two commentaries I referenced -- by Brown and Henry respectively -- are well-regarded and freely available as they are in the public domain.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Not really. As Jamieson Fausset Brown explains it in his famous commentary:

                    "Submissiveness is rendered by the wife to the husband under the eye of Christ, and so is rendered to Christ Himself. The husband stands to the wife in the relation that the Lord does to the Church, and this is to be the ground of her submission: though that submission is inferior in kind and degree to that which she owes Christ." (Emphasis mine.)
                    Where does the actual Bible text say that "Submissiveness is rendered by the wife to the husband under the eye of Christ, and so is rendered to Christ Himself." It is a convenient interpretation but I don't find that in the Bible.

                    The Bible is pretty clear, it says: "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." If wives submit to their husbands under certain conditions, under the eye of Christ, the situation does not compare to the situation in which they submit to Christ. In that situation their submission is not under the eye of a higher authority but a direct relation. So you point to two situations that do not compare while the Bible actually "as you do to the Lord". If you submit to the Lord without it being under the eye of a higher authority but submit to your husband under the eye of a higher authority, you are simply not submitting to husband "as you do" to the Lord. Quite simple. So you provide an "interpretation" that is rather a contradiction of what the text says. It is convenient in its ability to find its' way around what the text actually says.

                    Like I said earlier: Theology is often the art of making sure that the text means the opposite of the meaning of the words. You have no excuse for believing it.
                    Last edited by Charles; 02-16-2019, 03:06 PM.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • 1 Corinthians 11:7-12

                      A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
                      I believe we are going to see an emphasis on the latter part of the text from the Christians and attempts to explain why: "For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." in no way means what it says but is just there for the fun of it and should be read in a "context" in which it means nothing along the lines of what the text says.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • "The Word and work of God is quite clear, viz. that women were made to be either wives or prostitutes." Martin Luther
                        Historical context points in more than one direction...
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          Where does the actual Bible text say that "Submissiveness is rendered by the wife to the husband under the eye of Christ, and so is rendered to Christ Himself."...
                          MM clearly pointed to a COMMENTARY of a noted scholar, not the Bible itself.

                          Like I said earlier:
                          This is the COMMENTARY of an internet .
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            MM clearly pointed to a COMMENTARY of a noted scholar, not the Bible itself.
                            And asking for biblical support of what the COMMENTARY says is asking too much?

                            And you conveniently forgot this:

                            The Bible is pretty clear, it says: "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord." If wives submit to their husbands under certain conditions, under the eye of Christ, the situation does not compare to the situation in which they submit to Christ. In that situation their submission is not under the eye of a higher authority but a direct relation. So you point to two situations that do not compare while the Bible actually "as you do to the Lord". If you submit to the Lord without it being under the eye of a higher authority but submit to your husband under the eye of a higher authority, you are simply not submitting to husband "as you do" to the Lord. Quite simple. So you provide an "interpretation" that is rather a contradiction of what the text says. It is convenient in its ability to find its' way around what the text actually says.
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              And you conveniently forgot this:
                              Sadly, you mistake dismissiveness for forgetfulness. It's what a deserves.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Sadly, you mistake dismissiveness for forgetfulness. It's what a deserves.
                                Sadly you could provide nothing to show why or how the interpretation was right while I could provide good reason to doubt it.
                                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                                Comment

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