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Brexit vote

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
    Essentially what happened is a lot of Brexiteers on the Conservative side voted against it since it would pretty much leave us as a vassel state to the EU still signed up to most of it but with no voting rights.
    I'm not sure about that point. Any negotiation, handled by anyone, would be a re-shuffle of the basic, existing building blocks: degree of access to the single market in exchange for degree of acceptance of EU rules.

    To simplify it further: we can choose severe economic damage, or some degree of vassalage. Parliament seems to be violently rejecting both ideas.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Darth Ovious View Post
      The Brexiteers who voted against it are going for a no deal exit which they hope will happen if a deal isn't agreed upon by end of March.
      According to Article 50, we leave automatically at the end of March if there is a deal (or in this case really a transition period) or not, unless we request to extend article 50. The EU have said they can do this, but only for a General Election or a re-run of the vote. Otherwise there isn't any point - unless the UK Government shifts its own red lines.

      Once May had committed to leave the single market, customs union and jurisdiction of the European court of justice, and once she accepted that there could be no hard border in Ireland, then she had all but written the withdrawal agreement that MPs rejected last night.

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      • #18
        I'm for a second referendum personally, though I'm not blind to the issues that would cause (I'd actually argue that the cat is out of the bag now). What would be the question? A vague leave/remain vote isn't on - it was done before and we've lived through several years of trying to manage a deal with no clear definition- leave campaigners discussed several mutually exclusive options during the previous referendum.

        I did originally think a referendum based on May's deal and remain was the best option- as no Governemnt would vote for a no deal and they have clearly said as much (barring the head-bangers) for the last few years. Last nights vote put paid to that though. It lost so thoroughly, that one cannot realistically now put it to the people - and who would campaign for it?

        A referendum between Remain and No Deal? That’s attractive because the polls suggest that Remain would romp home, and it would properly settle the question. But if No Deal was to win? The morning after, politicians would solemnly declare they respect the result and will now prepare to implement it. 3 years later, they’ll still be in total paralysis trying to work out how to not do it. No one will ever implement that, so it would be pointless to have it on any ballot. It’s too ridiculous.

        Only one realistic option is left standing, then: parliament unilaterally revokes article 50, and we bin Brexit. The Leavers can then regroup and come back with a new Brexit plan that takes account of everything we’ve learned in the past 3 years that isn't pie in the sky fantasy.

        May’s deal was the only realistic Brexit given her red lines. MPs chose to kill it, so they now need to follow the logic of their own actions and hit the eject button.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          This was the 'meaningful vote' on the Withdrawal Agreement. No country has exited the EU before so it's bound to be tricky. Brexit will happen but exactly how is yet to be decided ... unless it all goes off the rails.
          So, in the founding documents for the EU, there was no provision for any country to exit?
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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          • #20
            OK, so who's the master manipulator of the EU? Who's, like, the mover and shaker?
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              OK, so who's the master manipulator of the EU? Who's, like, the mover and shaker?
              George Soros?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                So, in the founding documents for the EU, there was no provision for any country to exit?
                I think one of the problems is that the UK wants to participate in the EU market place without restrictions, but doesn't want to belong to the EU.

                They want their cake and eat it too.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I think one of the problems is that the UK wants to participate in the EU market place without restrictions, but doesn't want to belong to the EU.

                  They want their cake and eat it too.
                  That's pretty much it, yeah.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                    That's pretty much it, yeah.
                    So Ireland will probably become a huge black market.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I think one of the problems is that the UK wants to participate in the EU market place without restrictions, but doesn't want to belong to the EU.

                      They want their cake and eat it too.
                      At least that's what the politicians seem to want. What do the people want?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        At least that's what the politicians seem to want. What do the people want?
                        Let them eat cake!
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          At least that's what the politicians seem to want. What do the people want?
                          Basically the same. They were promised many mutually exclusive versions of Brexit, most of which were not in the politicians power to promise (eg all of the benefits of the single market with none of the responsibilities). There is no one brexit deal which will make them happy.

                          But then producing a yes/no vote defending the status quo in a post crash economy was always going to result in a kicking.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Are they gonna build a wall in Ireland?

                            Well... Europe has had its' history with walls. Nothing to be proud of. Nothing to repeat. I hope what I am saying means the answer is "no".
                            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              Well... Europe has had its' history with walls. Nothing to be proud of. Nothing to repeat. I hope what I am saying means the answer is "no".
                              The EU has built 1,000 km of border walls since the fall of the Berlin Wall. News coverage is mostly negative, but the US is far from alone in desiring to limit the flow of illegal border crossings with walls.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Are they gonna build a wall in Ireland?

                                Ireland already has walls.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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