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Botham Shem Jean

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  • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    There's no equivalence here.

    She accepted a hug, and reluctantly at that.
    Did you actually watch the video? She threw her arms around his neck, then went back for seconds and thirds and fourths...

    That's nothing at all, and less than nothing in comparison to a prisoner going to the personal, extended, and deliberate effort of memorizing the Qur'an.

    Since you brought it up ...

    It's clearly something that can cause a judge to lose her wits, openly violating the first amendment...
    JimL, is that YOU?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Remarkable scenes in the courtroom. Some of her attitudes towards the black population, as exposed by the prosecution, were very unfavourable.
      The trial then moved to the sentencing phase. Prosecutors showed the jury derisive text messages Guyger sent about working a Martin Luther King Day parade in 2018. Responding to a message that asked “When does this end lol,” she wrote: “When MLK is dead… oh wait…”

      She also suggested that the crowd could be pushed or pepper-sprayed because she felt the parade was lengthy.

      Martin Rivera, her former partner on the force and former lover, texted her in March, 2018, writing: “Damn I was at this area with 5 different black officers !!! Not racist but damn.” Guyger responded: “Not racist but just have a different way of working and it shows.” In another conversation two days before the shooting, a friend discusses a dog that “may be racist”. Guyger replies: “It’s okay… I’m the same… I hate everything and everyone but y’all.”

      The 12-person jury was shown memes and quotations she saved on a social media account, such as “I wear all black to remind you not to mess with me, because I’m already dressed for your funeral”, and an image of a Minion character from the Despicable Me films with the text: “People are so ungrateful. No one ever thanks me for having the patience not to kill them.”
      - The Guardian

      What we see here, in the courtroom, is a generosity of spirit that is not reciprocated. It should be a lesson to us all.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • Hey, FF2, do you know about cite tags? They are supported but you have to do them manually. They're for citations like the one you just did and it dawned on me you might not realize you can use them here.
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Hey, FF2, do you know about cite tags? They are supported but you have to do them manually. They're for citations like the one you just did and it dawned on me you might not realize you can use them here.
          My phone is tricky and I can’t always get the web address off it.
          This is the Link:
          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...er-botham-jean
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            Remarkable scenes in the courtroom. Some of her attitudes towards the black population, as exposed by the prosecution, were very unfavourable.

            - The Guardian

            What we see here, in the courtroom, is a generosity of spirit that is not reciprocated. It should be a lesson to us all.
            Yes, love and mercy in the name of Christ.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Yes, love and mercy in the name of Christ.
              “In the name of Christ” ought to be redundant.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                “In the name of Christ” ought to be redundant.
                He specifically implored her to turn to Christ.

                “I don’t want to say twice or for the hundredth time how much you’ve taken from us. I think you know that. But I just…I hope you go to God with all the guilt, all the bad things you may have done in the past. Each and every one of us may have done something we’re not supposed to do. If you truly are sorry, I speak for myself, I forgive you. If you go to God and ask him, he will forgive you. And I don’t think anyone can say, I’m speaking for myself…but I love you just like everyone else. And I’m not going to say I hope you rot and die just like my brother did, I personally want the best for you. And I wasn’t going to ever say this in front of my family or anyone, but, I don’t even want you to go to jail. I want the best for you. Because I know that’s exactly what Botham would want you to do and the best would be to give your life to ChristI think giving your life to Christ would be the best thing that Botham would want you to do. Again I love you as a person. I don’t wish anything bad on you.”
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                  There's no equivalence here.

                  She accepted a hug, and reluctantly at that. That's nothing at all, and less than nothing in comparison to a prisoner going to the personal, extended, and deliberate effort of memorizing the Qur'an.
                  Surely you're aware that's not the equivalence to which I was referring.
                  Since you brought it up ...

                  It's clearly something that can cause a judge to lose her wits, openly violating the first amendment with cameras rolling, on live TV, in the courtroom and still in her robes. I shudder to think of standing in front of her if she got wind of my religious beliefs, and can only hope there's legal recourse. This is far beyond the conduct that saw Moore removed from the bench in Alabama.

                  As to this cop, while I've seen religious fervor change a heart before, as most of us have, and I'll even allow it's possible that if she had undergone a conversion like that — an outcome we've no reason to believe is likely here — she might have become a kinder, gentler, less rancidly racist stain on the DPD.

                  But that's all beside the point, because there's no fixing stupid.
                  Maybe you missed that she's been given a 10-year sentence, and is no longer on the DPD? The judge's religious beliefs don't appear to have affected the sentence she handed down. Amber's religious beliefs, whatever they are, don't appear to have affected the decision either, so I'm not sure what's gotten your panties into a twist.

                  When the basis for making decisions is markedly improved, decisions tend to show similar improvement. Granted, she may never have perfect hair....
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Maybe you missed that she's been given a 10-year sentence, and is no longer on the DPD?
                    And will never be allowed to serve on any PD anywhere in the US. Further, Texas has a mandatory '50% served' requirement, meaning that Guyger's team cannot even REQUEST parole until 5 years of time served.

                    The judge's religious beliefs don't appear to have affected the sentence she handed down.
                    And, note that the sentence she "handed down" was the one the jury imposed. In Texas, before the trial, the accused can request sentencing by a jury OR by the judge. Her team chose jury sentencing.

                    Further, the reason that the "witness impact statements" are made AFTER the sentence is handed down is so that they - in no way - can impact the trail or the sentence. After sentencing, there is nothing this judge can do to impact the length of stay for the convicted. From here, it is entirely left up to Texas Department of Corrections and the Parole Board.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                      It's clearly something that can cause a judge to lose her wits, openly violating the first amendment with cameras rolling, on live TV, in the courtroom and still in her robes....
                      Let's look at this absent rampant emotion....

                      First, the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
                      A) She is not 'Congress'
                      2) She was "making no law"
                      C) She was exercising her own "freedom of speech" AFTER the trial was concluded (yes, I believe it would have been better had she come back into the courtroom sans the robe - that would have been much more clear that "personally....")
                      IV) Even the Witness Impact Statements [of which this was all part] happen after the official close of the trial, so that they can have no impact whatsoever on the ruling or the sentencing.

                      So, what we have is that she "violated" - NOT "the First Amendment" - but the skewed interpretation of the "separation of church and state" principle which does not even exist in the Constitution.

                      I'm actually a little surprised that her incredible act of compassion in what had been such a volatile environment would be attacked as "openly violating the first amendment with cameras rolling...."

                      And it's most interesting to note that this was all set in motion by the extraordinary act of the brother of the murdered victim exercising his own 'freedom of speech' to pour out love and forgiveness and healing on his brother's murderer.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        He specifically implored her to turn to Christ.

                        “I don’t want to say twice or for the hundredth time how much you’ve taken from us. I think you know that. But I just…I hope you go to God with all the guilt, all the bad things you may have done in the past. Each and every one of us may have done something we’re not supposed to do. If you truly are sorry, I speak for myself, I forgive you. If you go to God and ask him, he will forgive you. And I don’t think anyone can say, I’m speaking for myself…but I love you just like everyone else. And I’m not going to say I hope you rot and die just like my brother did, I personally want the best for you. And I wasn’t going to ever say this in front of my family or anyone, but, I don’t even want you to go to jail. I want the best for you. Because I know that’s exactly what Botham would want you to do and the best would be to give your life to ChristI think giving your life to Christ would be the best thing that Botham would want you to do. Again I love you as a person. I don’t wish anything bad on you.”
                        That expression of good wishes might not have gone down as well if Jean and the Judge has been Muslin, and Guyger went off to prison clinging onto a copy of the Quran.

                        It was a little too theatrical and embellished for my taste, and we are left wondering about Jean’s motivation. Is he kind by nature, or from experience, or by obligation?
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          That expression of good wishes might not have gone down as well if Jean and the Judge has been Muslin, and Guyger went off to prison clinging onto a copy of the Quran.
                          Well, if Mohammad had actually preached love, forgiveness and healing instead of Jihad, you might have a point.

                          It was a little too theatrical and embellished for my taste, and we are left wondering about Jean’s motivation.
                          "We"? What motivation - other than the love of Christ - could possibly explain what he did?

                          Is he kind by nature, or from experience, or by obligation?
                          He had a good Christian momma who taught him well.

                          You would prefer, perhaps, the anger, shouting and chaos that was going on in the hall?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            My phone is tricky and I can’t always get the web address off it.
                            This is the Link:
                            https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...er-botham-jean
                            That's cool, thanks. I wasn't criticizing or worried about the link, though.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • I feel really disheartened this morning.

                              This has gone viral among Christians about a story of forgiveness. But apparently a lot of Black Christians are not thrilled... at all.

                              In one of the apologetics groups I'm in, one guy I've seen around Christian circles, a black guy... is downright pissed. He won't even say what he thinks other than that "you just don't get it". Another guy with a fairly wide voice, who is married to a black woman, says that white Christians need to be focusing just as much on systematic racism rather than just forgiveness.

                              An old friend of mine from high school who is now a pastor also just posted on Facebook to other pastors that if they want to use this as an example in church of forgiveness... but they haven't preached against current day racism, or didn't use Martin Luther King Day to do so... that preaching about Amber Guyger is going to do more harm than good. A friend chimed in that she had heard from a lot of black Christians and they are not thrilled about this story being used in this way... at all.

                              If a lot of black Christians feel this way, I feel that I can't just ignore their feelings, you know? Yet this sort of turning the other cheek is what Christianity is about. But the situation of racism in the US does complicate how to convey that.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                                I feel really disheartened this morning.

                                This has gone viral among Christians about a story of forgiveness. But apparently a lot of Black Christians are not thrilled... at all.

                                In one of the apologetics groups I'm in, one guy I've seen around Christian circles, a black guy... is downright pissed. He won't even say what he thinks other than that "you just don't get it". Another guy with a fairly wide voice, who is married to a black woman, says that white Christians need to be focusing just as much on systematic racism rather than just forgiveness.

                                An old friend of mine from high school who is now a pastor also just posted on Facebook to other pastors that if they want to use this as an example in church of forgiveness... but they haven't preached against current day racism, or didn't use Martin Luther King Day to do so... that preaching about Amber Guyger is going to do more harm than good. A friend chimed in that she had heard from a lot of black Christians and they are not thrilled about this story being used in this way... at all.

                                If a lot of black Christians feel this way, I feel that I can't just ignore their feelings, you know? Yet this sort of turning the other cheek is what Christianity is about. But the situation of racism in the US does complicate how to convey that.
                                I'd be more concerned with those who want to turn a teaching moment about forgiveness into something bitter and negative.

                                Comment

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