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Botham Shem Jean

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  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    Hmmm, I'm considering I might just be linguistically confused about a subtle distinction between how you catagorise murder and how we do it in Denmark. We have just have the term 'Drab' or 'Mord', which I guess can be translated murder, and we use it for all wrongful killings. For a legal killing we have another longer term "Slog ham ihjel", lit. "Hit him to death", that's the generic term for killing someone in Denmark.

    We have specific terms for what of 'drab' it is, but we all consider it 'drab'.

    I'm reading manslaughter here as like... let me think of an analogy...

    "A crane operator is sleep deprived, and due to inattention he lowers a fourty ton weight down not being aware of a coworker there, who is crushed by the lowered weight."

    Is the term manslaughter you guys are using, being used in this sense to describe what Guyger committed against Botham Shem?
    OK, let me think how best to explain it....

    In order for it to be murder, the prosecution is likely going to have to prove that you INTENDED for the person to get dead.
    As OBP has pointed out, it's "elevated" to premeditated murder if you actually planned it out ahead of time.

    In order for it to be manslaughter, the prosecution is likely going to have to prove that you (or "a reasonable person") were AWARE that your action would (or could) likely cause death.

    In many jurisdictions, the term "aggravated" elevates the crime (and likely penalty) like...

    Burglary of an unoccupied dwelling is burglary --- burglary of an occupied dwelling is aggravated burglary, because it adds the element of possible murder or violence to individuals, not just property.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Hmmm, I'm considering I might just be linguistically confused about a subtle distinction between how you catagorise murder and how we do it in Denmark. We have just have the term 'Drab' or 'Mord', which I guess can be translated murder, and we use it for all wrongful killings. For a legal killing we have another longer term "Slog ham ihjel", lit. "Hit him to death", that's the generic term for killing someone in Denmark.

      We have specific terms for what of 'drab' it is, but we all consider it 'drab'.

      I'm reading manslaughter here as like... let me think of an analogy...

      "A crane operator is sleep deprived, and due to inattention he lowers a fourty ton weight down not being aware of a coworker there, who is crushed by the lowered weight."

      We would call that "Uagtsom man drab" (Inattentional man killing) Is the term manslaughter you guys are using, being used in this sense to describe what Guyger committed against Botham Shem?
      it varies from state to state, but here is a general explanation:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        OK, let me think how best to explain it....

        In order for it to be murder, the prosecution is likely going to have to prove that you INTENDED for the person to get dead.
        As OBP has pointed out, it's "elevated" to premeditated murder if you actually planned it out ahead of time.

        In order for it to be manslaughter, the prosecution is likely going to have to prove that you (or "a reasonable person") were AWARE that your action would (or could) likely cause death.

        In many jurisdictions, the term "aggravated" elevates the crime (and likely penalty) like...

        Burglary of an unoccupied dwelling is burglary --- burglary of an occupied dwelling is aggravated burglary, because it adds the element of possible murder or violence to individuals, not just property.
        I think I understand better, in that case I retract my statement that its murder seems manslaughter (aggravated or not) seems to cover the situation I thought murder would be required to cover.

        Thanks Cow Poke.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          There is nothing wrong with that. The only question is whether I am right or wrong. The fact you're uncaring about this situation and aloof in no way makes you objective or more likely to be right.
          It can be wrong if you let your emotions outweigh the facts. I'm not uncaring or aloof, but trying to remain as close to neutral as I can until I know more of the facts.

          This is an outrage.
          Never said otherwise

          An innocent man is shot in his own apartment and you're going "Well... but... marijuana made him slow... maybe his fault" You stated this factoid about marijuana, first of all not commenting on the injustice of the police releasing this information, and how that casts doubt on their entire investigation). And you never retracted it, even when later it was revealed that Botham Shem wasn't high, and there was no THC in his blood at the time of the shooting.
          I hadn't actually heard that had been determined that there was no THC in his system...and AFAICT looking back through the thread, this fact was not posted...I certainly could have missed it.

          Then you can't be trusted with a firearm in my opinion and you should hand it in along with your license to carry. If you truly believe there's a not unreasonable chance that you'll arrive home to whereever you live and shoot the neighbors kid. Then I don't believe your gun is doing anything good for you
          Depends of if the neighbors kid is 6' 225 lbs and advancing towards me menacingly...then yes, he may die. Sorry you don't like that. It's why I carry.

          If the court manage to come up with anything less than manslaughter they're corrupt and injust. For all your claims about not defending her actions, you're doing an awful lot of defending them.
          Because I want to know the facts before I rush to judgement? You bet I am. I'm trying to make you understand that from what we know so far, this was an awful, preventable, tragic mistake. And I want to know what was going through her mind.

          I get that murder isn't the judgement you feel should be gotten. But honestly, are you actually reaching for less than manslaughter? Do you have any idea what the effect of such an injust result would be on society, and on people's trust in cops? There is no defending what she did. Its wrong. We both agree. All that's to be decided is whether she should get manslaughter or murder. That's all the court has got to figure out at this stage.
          Or Criminally negligent Homicide...

          She's more guilty than OJ Simpson whether she walks free or not.
          Oh PLEASE...stop with the histrionics already! OJ planned out and executed 2 people by almost cutting off their heads. That's Capital murder in Texas, meaning the death penalty is on the table. Guyger's case is NOTHING like that...unless you have information that says otherwise that she somehow knew him and deliberately plotted to kill him then you need to stop with the melodrama.

          Anything she says now is scripted entirely by lawyers who are working for an innocent plea. Why trust even a single word she says? Nothing is recorded. She wasn't wearing her body cam. She's free to invent any story she wants and is likely encouraged by her lawyer to do just that. The police furthermore tried to defend her during the investigation, they "found" (or planted) marijuana in the apartment, and then conveniently happened to leak this fact to the public.
          There is some video footage after the fact out there I believe, and the neighbor who heard (through the wall or door) "open the door" which COULD have been "get on the floor".

          After that I don't think anyone should trust anything found during the investigation from the position to the body, to her testimony, to anything that the police could tamper with that could in any way lessen her culpability.

          It might still sway a jury as you use untrained citizens in the US for that. Which is crazy to me. And I'm sure the court is going to be impartial in how it packs those seats, it definitely won't ask them questions about how they feel about cops during the selection. I'm sure someone saying he's skeptical of cops will get a fair chance to sit on that bench. Right?

          This whole process is being rigged in her favor, and there can be no support of that, and if she walks free its the clearest textbook example of police injustice I'll have ever seen.
          I'm sorry you think a fair trial/hearing is uncalled for but, here in the US, you are not guilty and it has to be proven that you are indeed guilty. So, for now, she's not guilty in the eyes of the court.
          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            It can be wrong if you let your emotions outweigh the facts.
            Then get off your high horse, quit the gas lighting and talk about the facts.

            I hadn't actually heard that had been determined that there was no THC in his system...and AFAICT looking back through the thread, this fact was not posted...I certainly could have missed it.
            The autopsy has been completed. I'm afraid on a follow up search I can't find a specific link. The actual autopsy hasn't been made public record yet. Ever since another group overtook the investigation there's been a tight seal on everything.

            Depends of if the neighbors kid is 6' 225 lbs and advancing towards me menacingly...
            Ah yes the classical black hulk stereotype. There is no evidence at all that Botham Shem was advancing towards her menacingly in any way.

            Because I want to know the facts before I rush to judgement?
            No you don't. You speculate even more wildly than I do. I am skeptical of the police, and yet you trust their report on the marijuana and go on to use that as a speculative defense of her actions. I don't mind you claiming the high horse of reason, if you'd be careful enough to seperate speculation from fact.

            You bet I am. I'm trying to make you understand that from what we know so far, this was an awful, preventable, tragic mistake. And I want to know what was going through her mind.
            Even assuming her story, which is a living organism that keeps changing each time she's asked about it, plays out mostly the way she told... she still shoots an innocent person, while she's unlawfully trespassing on his property, who is guilty of no crime.

            Or Criminally negligent Homicide...
            Involuntary manslaughter? You gotta be joking. You want her to be sentenced with crime we give people who accidentally run over a pedestrian? That doesn't begin to approach the crime she committed. She shot, and killed, an innocent citizen, in his own home, which she was trespassing on.

            There is some video footage after the fact out there I believe, and the neighbor who heard (through the wall or door) "open the door" which COULD have been "get on the floor".
            I trust the "open the door" version more. Her new story about the door just happening to be ajar is a bit farfetched. Its more likely she was pounding at the door, he opened it and then for some reason she opened fire on him.

            It very likely is murder if she killed him for some reason. Perhaps frustration with noise. The night before she killed him she had registered a noise complaint against him.

            I'm sorry you think a fair trial/hearing is uncalled for but,
            You're burning a strawman.

            I don't think a fair trial or hearing is what is going to happen. At least I fear its not going to happen. Cow Poke and others fear its not going to happen either.

            Guyger got days to turn herself in, square away any evidence against her and concoct an alibi. Also her apartment was never searched. The police happily reported things that could sway a jury, including you, in her favor and did so unpunished.

            The police protect their own. There's a famous case of a person who was shot in the back while running away from a cop. The only reason that cop is in prison is because someone secretly recorded the whole thing on his smartphone. And the cop is seen calling in the shooting, no CPR is administered, another cop walks up and places a tazer into the hand of the victim to make the shooting "legitimate", the evidence is later furthered doctered at the station. But for that record, all people like you would know is that a "brave cop had to tragically shoot a person who wrested his tazer from him."

            That was the murder of Walker Scott. Thankfully there the officer got the full 20 years he deserved.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              Then get off your high horse, quit the gas lighting and talk about the facts.



              The autopsy has been completed. I'm afraid on a follow up search I can't find a specific link. The actual autopsy hasn't been made public record yet. Ever since another group overtook the investigation there's been a tight seal on everything.



              Ah yes the classical black hulk stereotype. There is no evidence at all that Botham Shem was advancing towards her menacingly in any way.



              No you don't. You speculate even more wildly than I do. I am skeptical of the police, and yet you trust their report on the marijuana and go on to use that as a speculative defense of her actions. I don't mind you claiming the high horse of reason, if you'd be careful enough to seperate speculation from fact.



              Even assuming her story, which is a living organism that keeps changing each time she's asked about it, plays out mostly the way she told... she still shoots an innocent person, while she's unlawfully trespassing on his property, who is guilty of no crime.



              Involuntary manslaughter? You gotta be joking. You want her to be sentenced with crime we give people who accidentally run over a pedestrian? That doesn't begin to approach the crime she committed. She shot, and killed, an innocent citizen, in his own home, which she was trespassing on.



              I trust the "open the door" version more. Her new story about the door just happening to be ajar is a bit farfetched. Its more likely she was pounding at the door, he opened it and then for some reason she opened fire on him.

              It very likely is murder if she killed him for some reason. Perhaps frustration with noise. The night before she killed him she had registered a noise complaint against him.



              You're burning a strawman.

              I don't think a fair trial or hearing is what is going to happen. At least I fear its not going to happen. Cow Poke and others fear its not going to happen either.

              Guyger got days to turn herself in, square away any evidence against her and concoct an alibi. Also her apartment was never searched. The police happily reported things that could sway a jury, including you, in her favor and did so unpunished.

              The police protect their own. There's a famous case of a person who was shot in the back while running away from a cop. The only reason that cop is in prison is because someone secretly recorded the whole thing on his smartphone. And the cop is seen calling in the shooting, no CPR is administered, another cop walks up and places a tazer into the hand of the victim to make the shooting "legitimate", the evidence is later furthered doctered at the station. But for that record, all people like you would know is that a "brave cop had to tragically shoot a person who wrested his tazer from him."

              That was the murder of Walker Scott. Thankfully there the officer got the full 20 years he deserved.
              If your purpose was to insult me into silence then as far as answering you, you have succeeded. Insinuating I'm "on a high horse" ignoring the facts and or manufacturing "facts" while doing the same thing is hypocrisy at it's finest. Insinuating I'm a racist with the "Ah yes the classical black hulk stereotype" comment takes the cake. I'm going to ignore the rest of your comments as not worth my time.

              Good day sir!
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment


              • This trial is ongoing as we speak.

                https://www.npr.org/2019/09/28/76541...n-murder-trial
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I really hope she doesn't walk free with only a stern warning, or just a couple of symbolic months in prison.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I really hope she doesn't walk free with only a stern warning, or just a couple of symbolic months in prison.
                    We shall see, but the prosecution has outlined quite a number of errors on her part.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • I thought it strange that the prosecution paraded a bunch of people to the stand to tell the court how they had been on the wrong floor and tried to go into (or managed to go into) the wrong apt. One man even talking about seeing a purse on the kitchen counter and thinking "...I guess my roommate has a women here...". Seeming their only point in this was to basically ask.."but you didn't shoot and kill them right?"
                      Last edited by Littlejoe; 09-30-2019, 03:02 PM.
                      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Never happened to me and I've come home from overnighters. I'd have to be so drunk that I could barely stand up which I'm starting to wonder if she was.
                        Has happened to me and I don't drink. Has happened to me in reverse, and I still don't drink.

                        Thank God it was a female dorm.

                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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                        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Eh, you're doing a lot of "It was a mistake anyone could have made ... it would have been perfectly legal and just if it was her own home" kind of explanation. What does it matter if it would have been legal if it was a robber in her own home.

                          It wasn't a robber in her own her own. She was trespassing on someone else's home, and killed them.
                          The difference is intent - you're making a murder case where what facts we have lean manslaughter.

                          IF it was accidental as alleged, no trespass took place - again, intent matters.

                          IF manslaughter, then the question of why ANY officer should be allowed to opt in to that much overtime arises. Assuming she correctly believed she could perform her duties properly over that stretch, she's still up way past bedtime by the time she arrives home (even assuming world's fastest morning female and driving straight home makes it 16 hours - 16 1/2 to 17 being more likely) she's probably not able to perform her duties - but still required to carry a weapon. Yeah, THAT policy needs a serious review.

                          Still if, but the overtime issue may explain the 'throwing her under the bus' - maybe.



                          I will say this, if you think she made a rash decision, you brand yourself a hypocrite by judging her rashly.

                          Or we could wait until the investigation provides more evidence.

                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            When police officers interact with subjects under arrest in the jail, there is a locker for them to place their firearms before entering "detention" to keep from giving prisoners access to guns.

                            Police in the US are considered "on duty" 24 hours per day, and when in uniform, most (commissioned) officers are required to be armed.
                            In Alabama, on call officers are also required to be armed.

                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              Has happened to me and I don't drink. Has happened to me in reverse, and I still don't drink.

                              Thank God it was a female dorm.
                              Which goes to show that everyone reacts/handles/succumbs differently to situations. She had come off of a 13 hour shift. LEO's I know tell me that you're often totally spent at the end of that kind of shift. Dallas PD has lost a bunch of officers and are chronically short staffed (making this a "normal" shift for most officer in DPD). Meaning they respond to a high number of calls a day. Not to excuse this but...still not sure it's more that a tragic, horrible, totally preventable accident.
                              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                The difference is intent - you're making a murder case where what facts we have lean manslaughter.

                                IF it was accidental as alleged, no trespass took place - again, intent matters.

                                IF manslaughter, then the question of why ANY officer should be allowed to opt in to that much overtime arises. Assuming she correctly believed she could perform her duties properly over that stretch, she's still up way past bedtime by the time she arrives home (even assuming world's fastest morning female and driving straight home makes it 16 hours - 16 1/2 to 17 being more likely) she's probably not able to perform her duties - but still required to carry a weapon. Yeah, THAT policy needs a serious review.

                                Still if, but the overtime issue may explain the 'throwing her under the bus' - maybe.



                                I will say this, if you think she made a rash decision, you brand yourself a hypocrite by judging her rashly.

                                Or we could wait until the investigation provides more evidence.
                                We appear to be in the final days (hours?) of the actual trial, so whatever evidence there is should be on full display soon.
                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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