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Botham Shem Jean

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    OK, cool --- because I think this is one of the LEAST defensible cases of "justifiable homicide" I've ever seen. It looks to me like utter incompetence and negligence.

    At the risk of catching the ire of some of our more PC members, some of the Dallas officers are complaining that this was, in part, a result of the "diversity" movement -- that they are hiring unqualified people to be police officers to meet certain quotas.
    Well...in addition to that, Dallas Police officers are quitting by the droves so, you have inexperienced and unqualified officers working overtime to make up for the shortfall of experience, qualified officers leaving the dept. Bad mix all the way around....
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      An officer guns down an innocent person in their own home, the local police tries to dig up dirt on that person and publicises that the person owned a small quantity of marijuana (this is done even though the toxicology report shows that the victim wasn't high at the time), that officer and that police department shouldn't walk scott free from that.

      I don't know the precise legal terms but it is very definitely a 'wrongful killing'. She wasn't acting as an officer of the law at that moment. She was at another persons apartment - accidentally or not - and she shot down and killed a person, in his own home, because he wasn't responding to her commands.

      There is full intent to kill in this case. She shot; She intended to kill. The killing was also wrongful; She was shooting an innocent person, in his own apartment. He was not the tresspasser, she was.

      The whole deal revolves around whether it is a reasonable excuse to say "I'm sorry I mistook the wrong apartment" Some believe that's a reasonable excuse. I don't.

      While I agree she shouldn't get life sentence, as the murder wasn't premeditated, I think any sentencing below four years would be a gross injustice.

      If she walks out blameless as the snow, there will be riots and I won't blame the people participating in those riots.
      While I pretty much agree with everything you've said here...and I agree it's inexcusable...the dead man DOES bear a little bit of responsibility for not complying doesn't he? She identified herself as an officer IIRC, making his non-compliance terminally stupid. If he had simply got down on the floor like he was ordered, he would not have been killed. NOT excusing her decision to shoot, but if confronted by an officers instructions, compliance in order to live to sue is the MUCH more prudent course of action.
      "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

      "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

      Comment


      • Originally posted by LittleJoe
        the dead man DOES bear a little bit of responsibility for not complying doesn't he?
        If he does its entirely negligible. We don't know how long she was shouting, but looking at police shootings of innocents it might have been for as short a time as three seconds. I won't trust any words her lawyers have instructed her to say during court, not even whether or not she was afraid. Only God knows what actually took place. I doubt she was wearing her body cam.

        There is no excusing, not even slightly, what she did.

        She trespassed, illegally, and shot wrongfully, with full intent to kill, a law-abiding citizen in his own home.

        That is what is certain. The rest is speculation. And what is certain is definitely more than just a minor slap on the wrist. Manslaughter at least. I do believe the real charge ought to be murder, though a jury might never be willing to put a cop to jail for murdering someone, even in a case like that.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          If he does its entirely negligible. We don't know how long she was shouting, but looking at police shootings of innocents it might have been for as short a time as three seconds. I won't trust any words her lawyers have instructed her to say during court, not even whether or not she was afraid. Only God knows what actually took place. I doubt she was wearing her body cam.

          There is no excusing, not even slightly, what she did.

          She trespassed, illegally, and shot wrongfully, with full intent to kill, a law-abiding citizen in his own home.

          That is what is certain. The rest is speculation. And what is certain is definitely more than just a minor slap on the wrist. Manslaughter at least. I do believe the real charge ought to be murder, though a jury might never be willing to put a cop to jail for murdering someone, even in a case like that.
          It seems like classic manslaughter to me. Murder means killing someone knowingly and meaning to. Her state of mind precluded that if she thought she was in her own apartment. While she knowingly did shoot him, her state of mind put him as an intruder. Since she should have been more aware of her surroundings it means it is more than an accidental shooting, and becomes a reckless killing that should never have happened but for her actions. Which is what manslaughter is.

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          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            It seems like classic manslaughter to me. Murder means killing someone knowingly and meaning to. Her state of mind precluded that if she thought she was in her own apartment. While she knowingly did shoot him, her state of mind put him as an intruder. Since she should have been more aware of her surroundings it means it is more than an accidental shooting, and becomes a reckless killing that should never have happened but for her actions. Which is what manslaughter is.
            From what I've seen here, I'm not at all convinced that she thought she was in her own apartment.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              It seems like classic manslaughter to me. Murder means killing someone knowingly and meaning to. Her state of mind precluded that if she thought she was in her own apartment. While she knowingly did shoot him, her state of mind put him as an intruder. Since she should have been more aware of her surroundings it means it is more than an accidental shooting, and becomes a reckless killing that should never have happened but for her actions. Which is what manslaughter is.
              Seems far too little to me. She knowingly shot him, and shot him meaning to kill him. She shot for the chest. Its kinda hard making the argument that you shoot for the chest hoping to incapacitate him. That's a shot meant to bring someone down permanently. I get that this is what the police are trained to do in the US, and that tactically if you do shoot, you shoot to kill, and if you aim for anything you aim for the chest.

              It all hinges on whether or not it is a reasonable excuse for her to say "Whoops, wrong apartment. My bad."

              There was no reason for her to shoot him. He was not complying? So what? Back up. Let him rob it and let him leave. Go after him when you have backup.

              Or when you've found out you were at the wrong door for crying out loud.

              Manslaughter is too little.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                From what I've seen here, I'm not at all convinced that she thought she was in her own apartment.
                That may be true but...that seems to be a pretty far reach from what we currently have evidence for.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                  Seems far too little to me. She knowingly shot him, and shot him meaning to kill him. She shot for the chest. Its kinda hard making the argument that you shoot for the chest hoping to incapacitate him. That's a shot meant to bring someone down permanently. I get that this is what the police are trained to do in the US, and that tactically if you do shoot, you shoot to kill, and if you aim for anything you aim for the chest.

                  It all hinges on whether or not it is a reasonable excuse for her to say "Whoops, wrong apartment. My bad."

                  There was no reason for her to shoot him. He was not complying? So what? Back up. Let him rob it and let him leave. Go after him when you have backup.

                  Or when you've found out you were at the wrong door for crying out loud.

                  Manslaughter is too little.
                  Police are not trained to shoot to incapacitate; that tends to be a far more difficult shot. If a policeman is shooting, the situation has escalated beyond the point where restraint is likely to be sufficient.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    That may be true but...that seems to be a pretty far reach from what we currently have evidence for.
                    I have arrived home after crunch hours. After fourty eight hour work periods. From the hospital loaded up painkillers and stumbling along. In the snow. And in just about any imaginable condition.

                    I have never arrived at the wrong door, and then threatened a guy who lived there.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Police are not trained to shoot to incapacitate; that tends to be a far more difficult shot. If a policeman is shooting, the situation has escalated beyond the point where restraint is likely to be sufficient.
                      Which was my point. She shot to kill. She shot meaning to kill him. Its ridiculous to talk of a lack of intent to kill here. This isn't a drunk kid with a gun who winds up shooting someone by accident. This is a person seeing another person in front of them, holding their gun threateningly and discharging it at them.

                      That she was trained can only serve to highten her culpability here.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Seems far too little to me. She knowingly shot him, and shot him meaning to kill him. She shot for the chest. Its kinda hard making the argument that you shoot for the chest hoping to incapacitate him. That's a shot meant to bring someone down permanently. I get that this is what the police are trained to do in the US, and that tactically if you do shoot, you shoot to kill, and if you aim for anything you aim for the chest.

                        It all hinges on whether or not it is a reasonable excuse for her to say "Whoops, wrong apartment. My bad."

                        There was no reason for her to shoot him. He was not complying? So what? Back up. Let him rob it and let him leave. Go after him when you have backup.

                        Or when you've found out you were at the wrong door for crying out loud.

                        Manslaughter is too little.
                        Well in Texas, Manslaughter can have a sentence up to 20 years.

                        https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-...hter-laws.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Well in Texas, Manslaughter can have a sentence up to 20 years.

                          https://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-...hter-laws.html
                          That would begin to approach it.

                          As for whatever claims she makes about the order of events, whether the door was unlocked, whether it was dark inside, whether she was afraid, etc... I don't trust her. She shot a citizen, lawfully residing in his own apartment.

                          I wouldn't trust her to sit the right way on a toilet seat let alone give a credible statement.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                            That would begin to approach it.

                            As for whatever claims she makes about the order of events, whether the door was unlocked, whether it was dark inside, whether she was afraid, etc... I don't trust her. She shot a citizen, lawfully residing in his own apartment.

                            I wouldn't trust her to sit the right way on a toilet seat let alone give a credible statement.
                            What possible reason could she have to knowingly go to a stranger's apartment and shoot him? Then expect to get away with it?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              What possible reason could she have to knowingly go to a stranger's apartment and shoot him? Then expect to get away with it?
                              I have no idea, but I don't believe a single word she'll say in court. What excuses she's instructed by her lawyers to give. I'll know she's honest if she pleads guilty to manslaughter. Otherwise I don't care what comes out of her lips.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Seems far too little to me. She knowingly shot him, and shot him meaning to kill him. She shot for the chest. Its kinda hard making the argument that you shoot for the chest hoping to incapacitate him. That's a shot meant to bring someone down permanently. I get that this is what the police are trained to do in the US, and that tactically if you do shoot, you shoot to kill, and if you aim for anything you aim for the chest.

                                It all hinges on whether or not it is a reasonable excuse for her to say "Whoops, wrong apartment. My bad."

                                There was no reason for her to shoot him. He was not complying? So what? Back up. Let him rob it and let him leave. Go after him when you have backup.

                                Or when you've found out you were at the wrong door for crying out loud.

                                Manslaughter is too little.
                                You seem to be reacting from a very emotional standpoint. What happened was very wrong, no doubt...again, not excusing her actions...but, there but for the grace of God go I, always plays in my head. As a male, who may or may not be able to defend himself unarmed against an intruder, (I obviously don't know your height or weight or defense training) but I'm old and small...I can see myself possibly shooting in this situation if it happened that way. I think we still have too few facts of the case to rush to judgement.

                                But, IF it happened the way she said (definitely not sure on that) but IF it did, then a small woman confronted with a large man "in her apartment"...she may have thought he was there to rape her or some such. Regardless, IF she instructed him to get down on the ground and he continued to fail to comply with that, as an OFFICER, her training would have kicked in especially if in his confusion, he advanced on her. SHOULD NOT have ever happened, we're in total agreement. But, unless there's more evidence of intent instead of preventable accident, I'm going to temper my judgement.
                                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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