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  • #16
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    The initial claims are all over the map, and can be refuted or defended depending on who's economic numbers you lean to (left or right), so I will forego a response to them. It's an endless, pointless, debate.

    I do agree that the deficit, under Obama, soared. Of course, Obama inherited the worst recession since the great depression. The deficit jumped from $450B to $1,413B in 2009, largely due to the stimulus package. It then began ratcheting downward and returned to pre-Obama levels in 2014. 2017 (under Trump) saw it rise to $665B and it is projected to rise year over year until it reaches nearly $1T under Trump - and Trump is president in a time of record low employment, healthy job creation, reasonable inflation, slightly elevated GDP increase numbers, healthy stock market growth, and the beginning of salary growth. In other words - a healthy economy.

    So how do you feel about deficit spending under Trump?
    We will always have some deficit spending, but as we are seeing as the economy grows the government takes in more taxes. And now, as the FED is predicting, we may see 4.9% growth by October. That should help mitigate the yearly deficits, it is the over all debt that is the real elephant in the room, and that is largely (not totally) fueled by social programs.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
      It does appear to be a continuation of the success of the Obama economy, yes.

      BLS Unemployment graph:
      [ATTACH=CONFIG]28050[/ATTACH]

      After the disaster crash at the end of 8 years of Republicans in office, the unemployment under Obama recovered steadily across his two terms, and what we are seeing so far 1 year into the Trump term appears to be just a continuation of that.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        You seem irretrievably deep down the rabbit hole of believing right-wing fake news Seer. I guess I'll content myself with pointing out to you that in general 9/10 of the articles you seem to like to link to are more false than true.

        I'm no fan of Obama at all. But he wasn't too bad on the economy.
        Nonsense, first income inequality got worse under Obama, there is no argument on that. Second, Obama did not do much that was business friendly, except more regulations that stifled growth.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          We will always have some deficit spending,
          Why on earth would you think this? We will always have a continuously growing debt and it will never reduce or be eliminated?

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          but as we are seeing as the economy grows the government takes in more taxes. And now, as the FED is predicting, we may see 4.9% growth by October.
          Yes...and Republicans were so sure this is going to happen, they were unwilling to write, into either the tax or spending bills, roll-backs if it doesn't...

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          That should help mitigate the yearly deficits, it is the over all debt that is the real elephant in the room, and that is largely (not totally) fueled by social programs.
          I'm sure military spending has nothing to do with it...
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-02-2018, 04:02 PM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I'm sure military spending has nothing to do with it...
            That is why I said largely, but it is the bulk of debt going forward.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              That is why I said largely, but it is the bulk of debt going forward.
              And most of that is disingenuous. Seer. The three biggest social programs are SocSec, Medicare, and Medicaid. SocSec is completely paid for by contributions. Medicare is mostly paid for by contributions, but depends on the general fund for the balance. Only Medicaid depends entirely on the general fund. The discretionary budget is $1.2T and more than half ($886B) goes to military spending. And the military is the ONE agency in the federal government that has never been successfully audited, last I checked.

              So the picture is not exactly as you paint it....
              Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-02-2018, 05:45 PM.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                And most of that is disingenuous. Seer. The three biggest social programs are SocSec, Medicare, and Medicaid. SocSec is completely paid for by contributions. Medicare is mostly paid for by contributions, but depends on the general fund for the balance. Only Medicaid depends entirely on the general fund. The discretionary budget is $1.2T and more than half ($886B) goes to military spending. And the military is the ONE agency in the federal government that has never been successfully audited, last I checked.

                So the picture is not exactly as you paint it....
                Nonsense, SocSec, Medicare, and Medicaid are not completely paid for, that is why they are the biggest drivers of debt.

                Medicare and Social Security Tabs Coming Due

                The national debt has dropped out of the headlines recently, but that doesn’t mean that it has gone away. In fact, just a few weeks ago, the debt officially topped $18 trillion. For those keeping score, that equals roughly 101 percent of GDP. In other words, we now owe more than the value of all goods and services produced in this country over a year. And, according to the Congressional Budget Office, the debt will climb to almost $27.3 trillion within the next 10 years.

                https://www.cato.org/publications/co...abs-coming-due
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Nonsense, SocSec, Medicare, and Medicaid are not completely paid for, that is why they are the biggest drivers of debt.
                  Read it again, Seer. That's not what I said....

                  And one source is here.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Read it again, Seer. That's not what I said....
                    So you think the $27.3 trillion dollars in 10 years is going to be paid for by contributions? It is not paying its way now...

                    Social Security will run a $69 billion cash-flow deficit this year. And that’s the good news. Every year after, that shortfall will worsen. All together, Social Security is facing future shortfalls worth more than $24.9 trillion. The so-called trust fund is simply an accounting measure, specifying how much money the federal government owes the program out of general revenues, not an actual asset that can be used to pay benefits.
                    Last edited by seer; 06-02-2018, 06:41 PM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      So you think the $27.3 trillion dollars in 10 years is going to be paid for by contributions? It is not paying its way now...

                      Social Security will run a $69 billion cash-flow deficit this year. And that’s the good news. Every year after, that shortfall will worsen. All together, Social Security is facing future shortfalls worth more than $24.9 trillion. The so-called trust fund is simply an accounting measure, specifying how much money the federal government owes the program out of general revenues, not an actual asset that can be used to pay benefits.
                      I did not say that either, Seer.

                      It would really help if you responded to things I actually said...

                      Now - as for the "trust fund" being an accounting trick...the trick is that the excess money collected by the trust fund since the inception of social security has been "invested" in U.S. Treasury bonds. That is to say, the government has borrowed the money out of the trust fund, and used it to make it look as if the deficit was smaller while paying for various initiatives. Where has that money gone? Into the general budget, and huge amount of it has been used to fund the Afghan and Iraq wars, both of which were entered into by Bush - so it went to (you guessed it) the military.

                      If the trust fund cashes in those bonds (i.e., reclaims the money borrowed by the U.S. Government), either the deficit will be driven up or the government will need to find new investors to raise the money to repay the bonds. However, assuming the borrowed money is replayed, the fund is projected to be solvent until 2034, at which point it will only be able to pay out a projected 75% of benefits.

                      https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s...trust-fund.asp

                      You might recall that the federal budget is in the hands of Congress - and both parties have contributed to this mess - by taking the same approach you advocated earlier, "there will always be deficit spending."

                      As an aside, if the trust fund had been invested into the stock market using basic index funds instead of being borrowed by Congress to fund wars (and other initiatives), the trust fund would have remained solvent indefinitely.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 06-02-2018, 07:29 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        I did not say that either, Seer.

                        It would really help if you responded to things I actually said...
                        Then it would be nice to know what your actual point is. I said the largest driver of future debt are social programs. That is not disingenuous that is a FACT. It doesn't matter how we got there or who is responsible, social programs are largely driving future debt. Then there is the side issue: There is no Constitutional mandate for the federal government being involved in health care, retirement, education, etc, in the first place... there is for military spending and defense.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          I said the largest driver of future debt are social programs.
                          I don't understand this sentence. Debt is something that accrues when you spend more money than you take in. US debt gets bigger when the government chooses to spend more money than it takes in, and gets smaller when it chooses to take in more money than it spends.

                          So, by definition, the largest driver of future debt will be the choice made by future politicians to have expenditure higher than revenue.

                          Personally, I'm quite a fan of having both expenditure and revenue high (high taxes, high spending) and being fairly balanced between the two. But the current Republican administration appears to have chosen to have high expenditure (they've upped military expenditure significantly) and low revenue (they've cut taxes significantly), and the result is they run a massive deficit and accrue debt, and I personally think that's extremely poor policy.

                          Your link claimed that the social programs constitute 47% of current government expenditures. They, along with defense spending, are the big-ticket items for the federal government. But they don't cause debt unless you choose to cut the revenue streams. It's not like having medicare existing magically causes debt, it's the combined choice to fund medicare at certain levels and cut taxes to other levels that accumulate debt.

                          That is not disingenuous that is a FACT.
                          It seems to me a long long way from being a fact. I don't view your claim as even a coherent one, never mind a 'fact'.

                          It doesn't matter how we got there or who is responsible, social programs are largely driving future debt.
                          This seems obviously nonsense. What is driving future debt at the moment is the Republicans' bizarre decision to cut the revenue stream to the federal government while upping spending on defense. The idiots appear to think that they can go on a spending spree while cutting their own income.

                          The thing is though, they're not idiots: It's actually a cunning plan. Their plan is to cut taxes and make people like you happy, then run up a massive deficit and debt as a result, and then turn around and point the finger at social programs, and blame the deficit and debt that they themselves voluntarily created on the social programs, and claim the social programs are at fault and need to be cut. And gullible fools like you buy their propaganda.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            I don't understand this sentence. Debt is something that accrues when you spend more money than you take in. US debt gets bigger when the government chooses to spend more money than it takes in, and gets smaller when it chooses to take in more money than it spends.

                            So, by definition, the largest driver of future debt will be the choice made by future politicians to have expenditure higher than revenue.

                            Personally, I'm quite a fan of having both expenditure and revenue high (high taxes, high spending) and being fairly balanced between the two. But the current Republican administration appears to have chosen to have high expenditure (they've upped military expenditure significantly) and low revenue (they've cut taxes significantly), and the result is they run a massive deficit and accrue debt, and I personally think that's extremely poor policy.

                            Your link claimed that the social programs constitute 47% of current government expenditures. They, along with defense spending, are the big-ticket items for the federal government. But they don't cause debt unless you choose to cut the revenue streams. It's not like having medicare existing magically causes debt, it's the combined choice to fund medicare at certain levels and cut taxes to other levels that accumulate debt.

                            It seems to me a long long way from being a fact. I don't view your claim as even a coherent one, never mind a 'fact'.

                            This seems obviously nonsense. What is driving future debt at the moment is the Republicans' bizarre decision to cut the revenue stream to the federal government while upping spending on defense. The idiots appear to think that they can go on a spending spree while cutting their own income.

                            The thing is though, they're not idiots: It's actually a cunning plan. Their plan is to cut taxes and make people like you happy, then run up a massive deficit and debt as a result, and then turn around and point the finger at social programs, and blame the deficit and debt that they themselves voluntarily created on the social programs, and claim the social programs are at fault and need to be cut. And gullible fools like you buy their propaganda.
                            No, where do you think we will get the 27 TRILLION needed in the next ten years? The fact is social programs are by far the greatest expenditure. And there are two ways to bring in new revenue - tax us to death, or expand the economy.

                            For instance: Feds Collect Record Taxes in First Month Under Tax Cut; Run Surplus in January

                            https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ut-run-surplus

                            https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsre...mt/current.htm

                            Never mind that the Federal government has no Constitutional right to be involved in these social programs in the first place.

                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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