They are not opposites

[carpedm9587]

I came across this, shared by my wife. As I read through it, I find that I agree with the entire thing. I wonder if I am the only one who does?

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[One Bad Pig]

I came across this, shared by my wife. As I read through it, I find that I agree with the entire thing. I wonder if I am the only one who does?

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Most people would suffer cognitive dissonance attempting to reconcile that list. The last one in particular is unequivocally false, regardless of what position you occupy on any spectrum - religious, political, or otherwise. Words have established meanings, carpe. Without them, true communication is impossible.

[carpedm9587]

Most people would suffer cognitive dissonance attempting to reconcile that list. The last one in particular is unequivocally false, regardless of what position you occupy on any spectrum - religious, political, or otherwise. Words have established meanings, carpe. Without them, true communication is impossible.

Actually, I don't think the last one is "categorically false," unless you mean "different and the same in the same way at the same time." I understand it to mean, we have differences - but we are also the same in many ways. I read it as a suggestion to consider the ways in which we are alike, instead of always focusing on the differences.

The same holds true for the entirety of the list. I support Black Lives Matter - and I am pro-police. I am pro-choice and anti-abortion. The list points out that people create "opposites" out of things that are not necessarily opposite - and so instantly reject what the other person is actually saying, because they have decided "if you are X - you are against me."

[One Bad Pig]

Actually, I don't think the last one is "categorically false," unless you mean "different and the same in the same way at the same time."

That's what the words mean, carpe. It's not my private interpretation of them.

[carpedm9587]

That's what the words mean, carpe. It's not my private interpretation of them.

I would say it is how you are interpreting the statements, OBP. I'm not having a problem with cognitive dissonance. My wife is not having the problem (obviously). So far the others I have shared this with have not responded with disagreement. So there is clearly something different about how the statements are being interpreted.

Example: You and I are different (Christian/Atheist, we live in different places, we have different personal histories, different families, different communities, etc.) and we are the same (we are both male, we are both Americans, we are both human, etc.).

There are similar themes for each of the things on the list.

[mossrose]

There can only be one truth. Some of the things on your list undoubtedly are possible, but when it comes down to the wire, you cannot have 2 opposing things that are both true.

[carpedm9587]

There can only be one truth. Some of the things on your list undoubtedly are possible, but when it comes down to the wire, you cannot have 2 opposing things that are both true.

Setting aside the binary thinking that statement reflects, logic tells us that two contradictory things cannot both be true at the same time and in the same way. I think you are overlooking the italicized part. So I showed you how "different" and "the same" can both be true of two people. Which other item on the list do you consider "opposites that cannot both be true?"

[mossrose]

Setting aside the binary thinking that statement reflects, logic tells us that two contradictory things cannot both be true at the same time and in the same way. I think you are overlooking the italicized part. So I showed you how "different" and "the same" can both be true of two people. Which other item on the list do you consider "opposites that cannot both be true?"

I wasn't referring to anything specifically, just generally.

[carpedm9587]

I wasn't referring to anything specifically, just generally.

I guess I'm confused. Your original statement was that this list created a sense of cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is usually what occurs when someone tries to hold two mutually incompatible things in their mind at the same time. If I am hacking a different neighbor apart with an axe each night, but thinking of myself as a "good person," there is likely a cognitive dissonance there. But you now say that there is nothing about this list that is specifically "opposites that cannot both be true?" Something does not compute. Have you changed your mind about the dissonance?

I do agree that the list DOES make one think. For some of them, I found myself instantly recognizing myself in the phrase (e.g., advocate BLM and be pro-police). Others made me stop and say, "wait...how would that work?" (e.g., anti-war and pro-military). But for each and every one, I found myself nodding and saying, you know - that DOES fit with my philosophy. It's why I found the list provocative. It challenges people to look beyond the slogans to a deeper level were we are probably more closely bound than a lot of people want to admit.

[One Bad Pig]

I would say it is how you are interpreting the statements, OBP. I'm not having a problem with cognitive dissonance. My wife is not having the problem (obviously). So far the others I have shared this with have not responded with disagreement. So there is clearly something different about how the statements are being interpreted.

Example: You and I are different (Christian/Atheist, we live in different places, we have different personal histories, different families, different communities, etc.) and we are the same (we are both male, we are both Americans, we are both human, etc.).

There are similar themes for each of the things on the list.

Of course people are different in ways and similar in others. That idea is utterly noncontroversial and has no place on a list of opposites.

I have differing levels of issues with the other statements, but I don't know that there's much point in discussing them if you can't see the obvious. I am utterly unsurprised that you lack cognitive dissonance from reading this list.

By the way, I'm fairly certain that you don't support Black Lives Matter in a way recognizable to actual members of the group, who take the phrase to mean "Black Lives Are More Important Than Others"; do you support that? I say this not because I've seen BLM activists say that, but because of their violent rejection of the phrase "All Lives Matter."

[Mountain Man]

It's not a question of what is possible but what is ideal. For instance, yes, it is possible to be a practicing homosexual and a Christian, but it is not ideal because living in sin will cause your Christian life to suffer terribly. As the Bible says, you can not serve two masters.

As for the rest of the list, much of it seems to depend on how you define the terms in question and then to wonder if trying to hold those views simultaneously is ideal.

[Jedidiah]

I came across this, shared by my wife. As I read through it, I find that I agree with the entire thing. I wonder if I am the only one who does?

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The problem is the list is impossible to pin down to actually mean anything specific.

"It is possible to be gay and Christian"
You have to define what it means to be Christian. Believers and non believers will not often agree on such a definition. Thus you have a virtually meaningless statement that attempts to show something that does not relate to what it is trying to show.

"It is possible to believe in God and science.”
I agree with this firmly. But what does it mean to believe in God, and what does it mean to believe in science? Two totally different meanings of the word believe and thus not comparable statements.

“It is possible to be pro choice and anti abortion”
We have more than one thread here that shows that these two require a great deal of interpretation to fit at all. Two more pretty much non comparable statements. I have personally expressed my disagreement with this statement more than once.

Most of the remaining statements fall under the above evaluations. Some just do not really have any meaningful pertinence to the sort of discussions we have had here. What we have here is a sort of feel good list of statements that purport to be opposites with the covering statement that they are not opposites. All in all agreeing or disagreeing does not carry much (if any) significance of anything.

[carpedm9587]

Of course people are different in ways and similar in others. That idea is utterly noncontroversial and has no place on a list of opposites.

The point, OBP, is that the list is NOT of opposites - it is a list of what many people treat as opposites that actually are not.

I have differing levels of issues with the other statements, but I don't know that there's much point in discussing them if you can't see the obvious. I am utterly unsurprised that you lack cognitive dissonance from reading this list.

By the way, I'm fairly certain that you don't support Black Lives Matter in a way recognizable to actual members of the group, who take the phrase to mean "Black Lives Are More Important Than Others"; do you support that? I say this not because I've seen BLM activists say that, but because of their violent rejection of the phrase "All Lives Matter."

You are right that I do not support BLM in that way, since that is decidedly NOT their position. It IS a position espoused by some individuals, and it has gotten press time, but it is not the position of the organization.

As for their reaction to "all lives matter," I don't agree with them, but I understand it. For too much of human history, black lives (in general) have NOT mattered the way white lives (in general) have. There are, of course, exceptions. However, can see the trend, even today, in a broad array of statistics. In general, black people are poorer, less educated, less likely to rise in an organization, more likely to be arrested (for the same offense that would NOT result in an arrest for a white person), more likely to be killed, than white people. Those are statistically sound statements and they apply pretty much across the country, with only minor variation from location to location. So they are not saying that black lives matter more than anyone else's, they are saying, "it's time to pay attention to the fact that black lives DON'T matter and should." The slogan "all lives matter" dilutes that message.

When the teeter totter is tilted to one side, the only way to level it is to add weight to the other side. If you keep adding the same weight to both sides, it never levels. That doesn't mean both sides "don't matter."

[carpedm9587]

The problem is the list is impossible to pin down to actually mean anything specific.

"It is possible to be gay and Christian"
You have to define what it means to be Christian. Believers and non believers will not often agree on such a definition. Thus you have a virtually meaningless statement that attempts to show something that does not relate to what it is trying to show.

"It is possible to believe in God and science.”
I agree with this firmly. But what does it mean to believe in God, and what does it mean to believe in science? Two totally different meanings of the word believe and thus not comparable statements.

“It is possible to be pro choice and anti abortion”
We have more than one thread here that shows that these two require a great deal of interpretation to fit at all. Two more pretty much non comparable statements. I have personally expressed my disagreement with this statement more than once.

Most of the remaining statements fall under the above evaluations. Some just do not really have any meaningful pertinence to the sort of discussions we have had here. What we have here is a sort of feel good list of statements that purport to be opposites with the covering statement that they are not opposites. All in all agreeing or disagreeing does not carry much (if any) significance of anything.

I agree with most of your statement. As I noted earlier, it is a list that makes one think - challenges the status quo of "mutually opposing." I suspect many would see many of these things as opposites, until challenged to consider how they might be compatible.

[Sparko]

I came across this, shared by my wife. As I read through it, I find that I agree with the entire thing. I wonder if I am the only one who does?

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Some of the things on the list are possible, others are not.