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Murder Rate In London...

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    we just wonder how you can be so callous when it comes to babies, but appalled that a criminal is killed.
    Am just wondering, given your Christian views on 'original sin', do you view babies as innocent? At what point does a person then become not innocent, such that in your opinion God is then justified in sending them to hell? Does that not-innocent status then justify their killing by other humans? Or do they need to be more of a 'criminal' before it's okay for other humans to kill them? How much of a 'criminal' do they need to be before we can be okay with them being killed?

    Not surprising, we disagree again that jailing the 78 year old home owner as a potential murderer was necessary is beyond me.
    I tend to assume the police had more information at their disposal than is being revealed in the media, and that if they made that decision it was probably for a decent reason (the UK police have their conduct reviewed to a much greater extent that the US police... so they don't tend to take random actions for no good reason, so on the whole I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt unlike I would with US police). I also tend to assume that tabloid hyperbole about the sick wife is probably not worth the paper it is written on, unless better sources can substantiate it. So I view there as being insufficient information to form a judgement about whether the police conduct was appropriate in this instance.
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    • #92
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      Understood, but a 78 year old pensioner with a sick wife is most likely not a flight risk. Investigation could have continued without him jailed unless there were suspicions that he had outright murdered the deceased man...which is unlikely just on the face of things.
      Unlikely, but possible.
      Again, a 78 y.o. pensioner with an invalid wife, is unlikely to be an outright murderer.
      Unlikely, but possible.

      I don't think that the police should refuse to investigate or release some-one just because they think a scenario is unlikely.
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      • #93
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Am just wondering, given your Christian views on 'original sin', do you view babies as innocent?
        Just FYI, I'm an extreme free-will advocate, and as such, ascribe to Open Theism. This does influence my theology in this. However, to answer your question, yes, I do believe babies are born innocent. I think everyone is born with the Original Sin nature, but that nature does not require them to sin. I believe that theoretically a person could be born and never sin...but practically speaking, that never happens. Just like if every car driver were hyper-vigilant and extremely cautious every second behind the wheel, theoretically there would never again be a car accident...but that doesn't happen. However, that said, I do believe that we’re born into "spiritual slavery" and into a corrupted creation. Our physical, mental and spiritual make up is, in varying degrees, damaged from the start. And there’s no doubt that this pretty much insures that all of us, will in time, join the "rebellion" by sinning. But I see absolutely no support for any idea that babies are in some (or in any) sense guilty and in danger of hell before they ever sin! That's why I personally believe babies not yet born should be protected by law.

        At what point does a person then become not innocent, such that in your opinion God is then justified in sending them to hell?
        When they die refusing Christ as their savior.
        Does that not-innocent status then justify their killing by other humans? Or do they need to be more of a 'criminal' before it's okay for other humans to kill them? How much of a 'criminal' do they need to be before we can be okay with them being killed?
        To me, the tipping point is when you unjustly and/or illegally threaten bodily harm (which would include forcible rape among other things) and/or death to another person, i.e. when they are committing or appear to be committing a violent crime. Now, if my house is locked and someone breaks in, I will get a gun and confront them, if they continue in a threatening manner, and do not comply with a surrender, I very well may shoot them. I have a permit to carry a gun, if I'm in a restaurant and someone comes in to harm people, or shoot people, I will draw my gun and shoot them. Defense of self, and family from harm, IMO, are justifiable homicide. That said, I pray that I am never put into a situation where I would have to do that...but I know I would if I had to.

        I tend to assume the police had more information at their disposal than is being revealed in the media, and that if they made that decision it was probably for a decent reason (the UK police have their conduct reviewed to a much greater extent that the US police... so they don't tend to take random actions for no good reason, so on the whole I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt unlike I would with US police). I also tend to assume that tabloid hyperbole about the sick wife is probably not worth the paper it is written on, unless better sources can substantiate it. So I view there as being insufficient information to form a judgement about whether the police conduct was appropriate in this instance.
        I disagree with most of your assumption here...but, it very well may be normal procedure in the UK. That, I don't know. Without more information on their thinking, It's pretty hard to tell what they knew, and what they expected to find. ISTM that the thug dying in the street and not in the house may have been a point of contention...but, to me, common sense should play into any investigation...but it appears from my side of the pond as if there was no common sense employed...but, as you say, my perception is colored by my experiences and knowledge of US and more specifically local laws and procedures.
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