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It's not guns that are the problem.....

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  • It's not guns that are the problem.....

    I've often commented in the past that with all the various school shootings your Americans seem to have, it's not the guns that are the problem. There are underlying issues (emotional/mental etc) that need to be dealt with and addressed rather than blaming guns (and video games). The fact that this sort of thing seems to be happening with increasing frequency suggests that this is something you should be tackling at a national level, rather than simply blaming guns.....

    The latest school incident involved knives and no guns: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11235539
    Source: NZ Herald

    A 16-year-old armed with two knives went on a stabbing and slashing spree at a high school near Pittsburgh, leaving as many as 20 people injured, including a school police officer who eventually subdued the boy with the help of an assistant principal, police said.

    Of the 19 students injured, four suffered serious wounds, but all were expected to survive, hospital officials said. The injured officer was discharged.

    Murrysville police Chief Thomas Seefeld said the bloody crime scene at Franklin Regional High School, some 15 miles east of Pittsburgh, was "vast" and may take a couple days to process.

    Police haven't named the suspect, who was taken into custody for questioning and later driven from the police station in the back of a cruiser for treatment for a minor hand wound.

    Investigators haven't determined a motive, but Seefeld said they're looking into reports of a threatening phone call between the suspect and another student the night before. Seefeld didn't specify whether the suspect reportedly received or made the call.

    Two student victims were in critical condition, according to Dr. Mark Rubino of Forbes Regional Medical Center, the closest hospital to the school where eight victims were taken.

    The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center treated a dozen patients. Officials said a 17-year-old boy and 14-year-old boy were in critical condition, a 17-year-old boy and a 16-year-old boy were in serious condition, and a 17-year-old boy and two 17-year-old girls were in fair condition.

    Five UPMC patients had been discharged, including three 15-year-old boys, a 16-year-old girl and an adult.

    Seefeld wouldn't detail the carnage beyond saying, "The juvenile went down the hallway and was flashing two knives around and injured the people."

    The chief said someone, possibly a student, pulled a fire alarm after seeing some of the victims being stabbed. Although that created chaos, he said, it also resulted in students running out of the school to safety faster than they might have otherwise.

    "The fire alarm being pulled probably assisted with the evacuation of the school and that was a good thing that that was done," Seefeld said.

    -AP

    © Copyright Original Source

    "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
    -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
    1 Corinthians 16:13

    "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
    -Ben Witherington III

  • #2
    As much as I deplore the anti-second amendment gun control crowd for their sheer illogical, fallacious and emotionally charged arguments, this is not a good counter argument. I agree, that there is obviously a bigger issue (I personally believe the discussion needs to be focused on the type of psychogenic drugs we're issuing, as every single mass shooter since Columbine has been on some type of mind altering medication), but the gun control advocate will simply deflect from that and make the case that there were far less people that actually died in this particular mass attack had it been a gun.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #3
      Similarly a little over a month ago at the railway station in the Chinese city of Kunming in the southwestern province of Yunnan a group wielding knives and possibly short swords sliced and stabbed scores of victims resulting in 29 dead and between 130 and 140 wounded.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        As much as I deplore the anti-second amendment gun control crowd for their sheer illogical, fallacious and emotionally charged arguments, this is not a good counter argument.
        Fair enough, I wasn't as much meaning it as a counter argument but more of a "you idiots are trying to fix the wrong thing"
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        I agree, that there is obviously a bigger issue (I personally believe the discussion needs to be focused on the type of psychogenic drugs we're issuing, as every single mass shooter since Columbine has been on some type of mind altering medication),
        Indeed. Too many deeper issues are simply "quick fixed" with drugs (not saying the drugs are all bad, I know people who need to be on them to function normally, like my best mates mom who if sh goes off her drugs she flips out completely, but too often drugs are given when not needed, or are given and then the real issues not dealt with)
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        but the gun control advocate will simply deflect from that and make the case that there were far less people that actually died in this particular mass attack had it been a gun.
        I actually am happy with more gun control than you Americans have, mostly because I've only lived in countries that have more restrictive gun control.

        But what they are failing to see is screaming for more gun control would have prevented this from happening....well it may have had a lower victim count but plainly guns aren't the cause of the incidents.
        "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
        -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
        1 Corinthians 16:13

        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
        -Ben Witherington III

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Raphael View Post
          Fair enough, I wasn't as much meaning it as a counter argument but more of a "you idiots are trying to fix the wrong thing"
          Indeed. Too many deeper issues are simply "quick fixed" with drugs (not saying the drugs are all bad, I know people who need to be on them to function normally, like my best mates mom who if sh goes off her drugs she flips out completely, but too often drugs are given when not needed, or are given and then the real issues not dealt with)
          I actually am happy with more gun control than you Americans have, mostly because I've only lived in countries that have more restrictive gun control.

          But what they are failing to see is screaming for more gun control would have prevented this from happening....well it may have had a lower victim count but plainly guns aren't the cause of the incidents.
          Doesn't New Zealand also have a better mental health care system than the U.S? Part of the reason we are here is because of the deinstitutionalization of the severely mentally ill. On the one hand they need their families, but their families can't treat them, and the people who should are few in number and there aren't enough qualified indivuduals to do the job in the 1st place.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
            Doesn't New Zealand also have a better mental health care system than the U.S?
            not too sure. My mate still lives in South Africa and he mother was institutionalised for a time after his father died because she simply couldn't cope. She now lives with him.
            Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
            Part of the reason we are here is because of the deinstitutionalization of the severely mentally ill. On the one hand they need their families, but their families can't treat them, and the people who should are few in number and there aren't enough qualified indivuduals to do the job in the 1st place.
            Hmm here in NZ you can get in-home help (state funded). And there are the assisted living folks who get help to be relatively independent.
            "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
            -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

            Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
            1 Corinthians 16:13

            "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
            -Ben Witherington III

            Comment


            • #7
              It's not guns that kill people. It's bullets going really fast propelled from the barrels of guns that do.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Just throwing this it there, but, as someone who has been a patient in the mental health system, there's also a big problem with misdiagnosis. bipolar ii, for example, is frequently misdiagnosed as depression and the anti depressants run the risk of triggering a hypomanic or even manic episode. The drugs WOULD work for the right thing, but this isn't it.

                "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                Katniss Everdeen


                Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by thewriteranon View Post
                  Just throwing this it there, but, as someone who has been a patient in the mental health system, there's also a big problem with misdiagnosis. bipolar ii, for example, is frequently misdiagnosed as depression and the anti depressants run the risk of triggering a hypomanic or even manic episode. The drugs WOULD work for the right thing, but this isn't it.
                  Which again points to a desperate need for more funding into research to improve the diagnosis and get people the right treatments that will help them.
                  "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                  -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                  Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                  1 Corinthians 16:13

                  "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                  -Ben Witherington III

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                    I've often commented in the past that with all the various school shootings your Americans seem to have, it's not the guns that are the problem. There are underlying issues (emotional/mental etc) that need to be dealt with and addressed rather than blaming guns (and video games). The fact that this sort of thing seems to be happening with increasing frequency suggests that this is something you should be tackling at a national level, rather than simply blaming guns.....

                    The latest school incident involved knives and no guns: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11235539
                    Source: NZ Herald

                    A 16-year-old armed with two knives went on a stabbing and slashing spree at a high school near Pittsburgh, leaving as many as 20 people injured, including a school police officer who eventually subdued the boy with the help of an assistant principal, police said.

                    Of the 19 students injured, four suffered serious wounds, but all were expected to survive, hospital officials said. The injured officer was discharged.

                    Murrysville police Chief Thomas Seefeld said the bloody crime scene at Franklin Regional High School, some 15 miles east of Pittsburgh, was "vast" and may take a couple days to process.

                    Police haven't named the suspect, who was taken into custody for questioning and later driven from the police station in the back of a cruiser for treatment for a minor hand wound.

                    Investigators haven't determined a motive, but Seefeld said they're looking into reports of a threatening phone call between the suspect and another student the night before. Seefeld didn't specify whether the suspect reportedly received or made the call.

                    Two student victims were in critical condition, according to Dr. Mark Rubino of Forbes Regional Medical Center, the closest hospital to the school where eight victims were taken.

                    The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center treated a dozen patients. Officials said a 17-year-old boy and 14-year-old boy were in critical condition, a 17-year-old boy and a 16-year-old boy were in serious condition, and a 17-year-old boy and two 17-year-old girls were in fair condition.

                    Five UPMC patients had been discharged, including three 15-year-old boys, a 16-year-old girl and an adult.

                    Seefeld wouldn't detail the carnage beyond saying, "The juvenile went down the hallway and was flashing two knives around and injured the people."

                    The chief said someone, possibly a student, pulled a fire alarm after seeing some of the victims being stabbed. Although that created chaos, he said, it also resulted in students running out of the school to safety faster than they might have otherwise.

                    "The fire alarm being pulled probably assisted with the evacuation of the school and that was a good thing that that was done," Seefeld said.

                    -AP

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Good point Raph, but the problem is that knee jerk reactions (such as 'gun control') are easy and quick. Fixing actual problems and coming up with lasting solutions isn't nearly as easy.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      It's not guns that kill people. It's bullets going really fast propelled from the barrels of guns that do.

                      sticker___guns_dont_kill_people_large.jpg
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]462[/ATTACH]
                        Not in this case.



                        Your everyday pimply-faced lanky teenage sociopath, looks like. I remember rocking that hairstyle if not the complexion.

                        As usual, the Daily Mail has a much more detailed take on the story, in pictures if nothing else.

                        Since nobody died, it looks like most of the victims are more in celebratory selfie mode.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          *sigh*
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                            Which again points to a desperate need for more funding into research to improve the diagnosis and get people the right treatments that will help them.
                            Improving the mental health system seems to be a bipartisan solution. How does that mesh with conservative opposition to government health programs?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              Improving the mental health system seems to be a bipartisan solution. How does that mesh with conservative opposition to government health programs?
                              I live in a country where we pretty much have free healthcare (dental would be a nice addition). When my eldest was born in South Africa, it cost me many thousands of Rands in medical fees. My youngest three cost me about $100 total.

                              I may be conservative but I have no problem with government health programs.
                              Although I will note that while my mother-in-law's cancer treatment cost thousands of dollars (my mother-in-law wasn't a NZ resident yet so didn't qualify for free treatment) and my sister-in-laws was free (my sister-in-law was a resident already so did qualify) my mother-in-law received more consistant care as she dealt with one specialist only. (although my brothers wife lost her battle against cancer 18 months ago, it wasn't because of the treatment)
                              "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                              -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                              1 Corinthians 16:13

                              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                              -Ben Witherington III

                              Comment

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