The Netherlands view on Immigration

[KingsGambit]

Some college has a fraternity called Kappa Kappa Kappa. They had the name first.

[Paprika]

Since nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room, I will.

I assumed that was common knowledge.

[JCAtheist]

Since nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room, I will. A cultural struggle in Europe right now is large number of Muslims immigrating in, and some rather uncomfortable cultural clashes have resulted (i.e. the Theo van Gogh incident). I would bet good money that this has much to do with this particular stringent stance.

Well, I didn't actually want to make that the focus of the thread. I was more interested in finding out if people believed that having a -speak our language- policy like that seemed 'fair', and also wondered if two years was long enough to learn a language fluently enough to go on a job interview.

While the policy may be in response to certain things, is it a policy more countries should have?

[JonathanL]

If you're diligent enough in your studies I see no reason why 2 years wouldn't be enough to learn a language to the point of fluency.

[thewriteranon]

2 years is absolutely enough time. I know of at least one case for sure in which 2 years was exactly the amount of time to not only reach fluency, but for the guy learning he became more proficient at English grammar than lots of naive speakers. I took French classes for a couple years and while I couldn't discuss philosophy or something, I feel like I'm conversational enough for a basic job interview.

[JCAtheist]

I guess then the last question would be, is it fair for any group to use such a thing to claim they are being treated unfairly?

[Darth Executor]

I guess then the last question would be, is it fair for any group to use such a thing to claim they are being treated unfairly?

No but fairness has nothing to do with it. Some immigrants want to benefit from living in a first world economy without actually integrating at all into said society. Since state enforced anti-racism is the norm these days such people will use racism to bludgeon anyone that cares into getting their way.

Also, according to the video they've been there for 16 years (!!!). That's more than enough time to learn a new language.

[JonathanL]

No but fairness has nothing to do with it. Some immigrants want to benefit from living in a first world economy without actually integrating at all into said society. Since state enforced anti-racism is the norm these days such people will use racism to bludgeon anyone that cares into getting their way.

Also, according to the video they've been there for 16 years (!!!). That's more than enough time to learn a new language.

After 16 years your language skills should probably be at native level proficiency.

[Teallaura]

Since nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room, I will. A cultural struggle in Europe right now is large number of Muslims immigrating in, and some rather uncomfortable cultural clashes have resulted (i.e. the Theo van Gogh incident). I would bet good money that this has much to do with this particular stringent stance.

It does. The cultures aren't 'clashing' - they are vying for supremacy. Europe is weird.

[Teallaura]

I guess then the last question would be, is it fair for any group to use such a thing to claim they are being treated unfairly?

Could be - dependent on circumstance. Two years is more than sufficient for someone living in the country to become proficient (emersion speeds things up a lot) but if it were a very short time frame then it would most likely be an exclusion tactic so yeah, there are cases that would be actual discrimination but the vast majority aren't.

[Teallaura]

After 16 years your language skills should probably be at native level proficiency.

Presumes facts not in evidence - and part of the reason for the Netherlands's new law - that people want to learn the language. Just like in the US where we've seen considerable 'cultural' resistance to learning English, Europeans have immigrants that are refusing to learn the native language. The likely reason is that they want to import their own culture rather than adjust to the new one. Add Sharia and it becomes an almost religious mandate.

[JonathanL]

Presumes facts not in evidence - and part of the reason for the Netherlands's new law - that people want to learn the language. Just like in the US where we've seen considerable 'cultural' resistance to learning English, Europeans have immigrants that are refusing to learn the native language. The likely reason is that they want to import their own culture rather than adjust to the new one. Add Sharia and it becomes an almost religious mandate.

Eh, my point was more that 16 years is more than enough to become as proficient in a language as a native speaker, not anything about any immigrants willingness or unwillingness to achieve that proficiency.

[Teallaura]

Eh, my point was more that 16 years is more than enough to become as proficient in a language as a native speaker, not anything about any immigrants willingness or unwillingness to achieve that proficiency.

I realize that - but if you are unwilling your skills won't improve even in 16 years.

[JCAtheist]

Do you think it's an immigration policy the USA should adopt too?

Personally, living in England, I think it wouldn't be a bad policy to have, period. I also wouldn't have a problem with such a rule if *I* decided to go live somewhere else.

What might be the negatives for such a policy? I mean, perhaps it would stop some movement towards your country, but that shouldn't inhibit the cross-training and teaching of foreign students or anything. So is there a down side?

[Paprika]

The policy makes sense as when immigrants learn the native language, they integrate better and more quickly, thus resulting in less social friction. I doubt it has any downsides except for the immigrants who don't want to bother learning the language.

It's also a tacit admission in yet another EU member state that the multiculturalism model and policies thereof adopted by the Union has generally failed.