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These US Supreme Court Rulings Could Completely Upend Gun Control

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  • These US Supreme Court Rulings Could Completely Upend Gun Control

    These US Supreme Court Rulings Could Completely Upend Gun Control

    scotus.jpg

    The Supreme Court has taken up multiple firearms-related cases for this term.

    Multiple U.S. Supreme Court cases that will be decided this term could completely change U.S. gun laws, including "bump stock" modifications and whether individuals accused of domestic violence violations can legally possess a firearm.

    In all, the rulings could affect hundreds of thousands of lawful gun owners, felons, those under domestic violence protection orders, and the nation's most prominent pro-Second Amendment group.

    Cargill Versus Garland

    Perhaps the most prominent case is Cargill v. Garland, which asks whether a bump stock device is a "machine gun" following the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) having issued a ban on the devices in the wake of the Las Vegas mass shooting in 2017. Authorities alleged that the shooter, 64-year-old Stephen Paddock, used the devices during the rampage.

    What the ATF did was expand the definition of a "machine gun," which is prohibited under the National Firearms Act of 1986, to include the devices that use the firearm's recoil to allow for the repeated pulling of the trigger to increase the rate of fire. The rule had mandated that anyone in possession of one should destroy the devices or face criminal penalties, with reports indicating that more than 500,000 people owned them when the rule was implemented in 2018.

    At the center of the legal battle over bump stocks is a rule from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, or ATF, issued in 2018 that expanded the definition of "machine gun" prohibited under the 1986 National Firearms Act to include bump stocks. Any person found with the device would be subject to a felony.

    A Texas gun shop owner, Michael Cargill, eventually filed a lawsuit against the ATF and Department of Justice, saying the rule violates his constitutional rights.

    Lawyers for Mr. Cargill urged the justices to take up the challenge to the ban, saying that the definition of a machine gun under federal law is unclear and impacts hundreds of thousands of Americans. The suit contends that Americans bought 520,000 bump stocks in a nine-year span, and that the new rule forces them to surrender the devices.

    "Despite ATF's previous assurances that federal law permitted possession of a bump stock, the Final Rule now brands as criminals all those who ever possessed a bump stock," the lawyers wrote in the petition.

    The attorneys also contended that between 2008 and 2017, the ATF had "repeatedly issued classification decisions stating that non-mechanical bump stocks" are not "machine guns" under the National Firearms Act.

    Lawyers for the Biden administration, however, said that the ATF rule doesn't change the ban on machine guns and instead informs the public that it classifies bump stocks as machine guns.

    .....

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

  • #2
    Only an ideologue would think a bump stock makes a gun a machine gun.

    The ATF needs to stop drinking the confiscated moonshine.
    P1) If , then I win.

    P2)

    C) I win.

    Comment


    • #3
      From what I can tell, a quick shot could just pull the trigger on a gun as fast as a bump stock. Are they gonna ban their fingers as "machine guns?"




      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        From what I can tell, a quick shot could just pull the trigger on a gun as fast as a bump stock. Are they gonna ban their fingers as "machine guns?"


        I have a friend who can hold a semi-auto handgun in such a way that he uses the weapon's own recoil to cause his finger to pull the trigger for the next round --- it's about as close to an "automatic pistol" as I've seen.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          I have a friend who can hold a semi-auto handgun in such a way that he uses the weapon's own recoil to cause his finger to pull the trigger for the next round --- it's about as close to an "automatic pistol" as I've seen.
          There are numerous techniques and tools that can be used to significantly increase the rate of fire in a semiautomatic firearm, but most seem to be accompanied by a sharp loss in accuracy.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            There are numerous techniques and tools that can be used to significantly increase the rate of fire in a semiautomatic firearm, but most seem to be accompanied by a sharp loss in accuracy.
            Even beyond the handgun to rifle comparison, yes.

            Which brings us back to handguns as the gun of choice for mass shooters --- if they are "school shooters", accuracy over distance is not a necessity, and concealment is an advantage, so a backpack full of semi-auto handguns and magazines would quickly become the standard, were AR-15 style weapons to magically and mysteriously disappear from the planet.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              There are numerous techniques and tools that can be used to significantly increase the rate of fire in a semiautomatic firearm, but most seem to be accompanied by a sharp loss in accuracy.
              Several decades back, when I was working in Central and South America, we ran across some people who used a comb-like device that they would draw back and forth across the trigger like a saw or a bow on a fiddle, to increase the rate of fire.


              R.jpg
              Looked something like this. Actually, a bit more pyramid-shaped.


              Needless to say accuracy was greatly effected.


              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Several decades back, when I was working in Central and South America, we ran across some people who used a comb-like device that they would draw back and forth across the trigger like a saw or a bow on a fiddle, to increase the rate of fire.


                R.jpg
                Looked something like this. Actually, a bit more pyramid-shaped.


                Needless to say accuracy was greatly effected.
                Well I am pretty sure using a regular machine gun affects accuracy too. That is made up by spraying bullets out willy nilly at high speeds.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  Well I am pretty sure using a regular machine gun affects accuracy too. That is made up by spraying bullets out willy nilly at high speeds.
                  Using an automatic weapon to spray out bullets like someone watering their lawn has always been discouraged (unless the purpose is to lay down suppressing fire).

                  That's why most automatic weapons these days have selector switches so you can fire three or four round bursts.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Using an automatic weapon to spray out bullets like someone watering their lawn has always been discouraged (unless the purpose is to lay down suppressing fire).

                    That's why most automatic weapons these days have selector switches so you can fire three or four round bursts.
                    Not arguing - just curious - what weapons can be set for 4? Never heard of that.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      Not arguing - just curious - what weapons can be set for 4? Never heard of that.
                      Some Brits I knew carried some German pieces that had four. Never heard them use them though so I can't personally confirm.

                      Basically, it's to keep someone from freaking and accidentally emptying the entire magazine at shadows. But these guys were not exactly the sort that you worried about panicking.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Some Brits I knew carried some German pieces that had four. Never heard them use them though so I can't personally confirm.

                        Basically, it's to keep someone from freaking and accidentally emptying the entire magazine at shadows. But these guys were not exactly the sort that you worried about panicking.
                        I'm fully aware of the "3 bursts" - just had never heard of 4 - it was either single (manual), 3 shots (burst), or "spray til ya stop".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          I'm fully aware of the "3 bursts" - just had never heard of 4 - it was either single (manual), 3 shots (burst), or "spray til ya stop".
                          That's all I've ever handled. According to Wiki, selective fire bursts are "generally two or three" rounds, so apparently there are other options.

                          And I don't recall running across two-shot bursts.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That's all I've ever handled. According to Wiki, selective fire bursts are "generally two or three" rounds, so apparently there are other options.

                            And I don't recall running across two-shot bursts.
                            Yeah, and many a platoon leader would really rank on his troops if they used full auto in an actual firefight -- WAY too easy to run out of ammo with little to show for it.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Using an automatic weapon to spray out bullets like someone watering their lawn has always been discouraged (unless the purpose is to lay down suppressing fire).

                              That's why most automatic weapons these days have selector switches so you can fire three or four round bursts.
                              I was just comparing full auto to "tricks" to make your semi-auto full auto. Both will end up affecting accuracy.

                              Comment

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