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World leaders again taking jets to global climate change summit

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  • #46
    Originally posted by seanD View Post

    Maybe there's some kind of secret conspiracy cabal of wealthy folks funding anti-climate change policy that you believe, but that's not the evidence I see. I don't see the wealthy class foisting onto people that climate change is not real. As I said to Ox, they're the biggest biggest, loudest, and most influential pushers of climate change, from Hollywood, corporate, and wallstreet elites, to government elites, all pushing this garbage down our throats. Now maybe most of them are just virtue-signalling, but they're still pushing it. You simply aren't giving me anything based in reality or fact for me to take anything you argue as credible.
    The elites push for both because they benefit from it either way. The people who own the gas companies are quite often the same ones pushing for Green technology. Just like how they pushed for the production of more plastics that they could sell to people while running recycling companies. The recycling industry is a scam and has actively been making things worse. Not only do most plastics not get recycled because they just ship most of it to China but most plastics can't be recycled anyway. The shipment of plastics from location to location also increases the amount of carbon released.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

      The elites push for both because they benefit from it either way. The people who own the gas companies are quite often the same ones pushing for Green technology. Just like how they pushed for the production of more plastics that they could sell to people while running recycling companies. The recycling industry is a scam and has actively been making things worse. Not only do most plastics not get recycled because they just ship most of it to China but most plastics can't be recycled anyway. The shipment of plastics from location to location also increases the amount of carbon released.
      The only argument I've seen of this "anti-climate change propaganda funding" cabal that has any weight is the left's favorite go-to boogieman Koch. I've not seen any evidence of "big oil," for example, funding this, in spite of their assertions to the contrary. I've only seen visible evidence that these companies are fully on board the green movement agenda. As I said, maybe in some cases it's greenwashing, but I've not seen evidence to the contrary.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by seanD View Post

        The only argument I've seen of this "anti-climate change propaganda funding" cabal that has any weight is the left's favorite go-to boogieman Koch. I've not seen any evidence of "big oil," for example, funding this, in spite of their assertions to the contrary. I've only seen visible evidence that these companies are fully on board the green movement agenda. As I said, maybe in some cases it's greenwashing, but I've not seen evidence to the contrary.
        Some of it is greenwashing, and some of it is playing both sides to ensure whatever happens they win.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

          Some of it is greenwashing, and some of it is playing both sides to ensure whatever happens they win.
          But my point is that there's nothing for me to assume they're playing both sides and not fully on board the green agenda train 100%. If I could see evidence Exxon-mobil (maybe tax records or something) is funding prominent climate change skeptics, then I'd agree with you; they're playing both sides. I think most conservatives in here believe the whole climate change agenda is being pushed by elites to gain more control of the plebs (as multiple conservatives have expressed that very view). So why would I not assume a wealthy corporate head of Exxon-mobil is fully on board the green movement for that same reason? Thus, why would I assume he would want to help propagate skepticism of the agenda?

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            I think most conservatives in here believe the whole climate change agenda is being pushed by elites to gain more control of the plebs (as multiple conservatives have expressed that very view).
            I agree that seems to be a common point of view here.

            No part of that idea seems plausible, and every part of it seems contrary to observed facts. I observe:

            - Plebs are benefiting from climate change regulations, e.g. EV subsidies that make cars cheaper for plebs, solar panel subsidies that make powering their own house cheaper for plebs.

            - Elites are not increasing their level of control over plebs via any of this.

            - Concerns around climate change are originating from scientists looking at the data. The belief of elites is explained by them hearing what scientists are saying. But what scientists are saying cannot be explained by elites wanting them to say that (you might find 1 in a 1000 scientists who would say anything the funder told him to, but as a scientist I can say that the absolutely overwhelming majority of scientists are interested in the data and truth and focused on solely that to the point of autism). The scientific consensus on climate change cannot be explained by corruption of scientists nor by elites willing it so.

            The facts are not in any way consistent with the claims conservatives here are making. Your claims seem rather obviously factually false.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              I agree that seems to be a common point of view here.

              No part of that idea seems plausible, and every part of it seems contrary to observed facts. I observe:

              - Plebs are benefiting from climate change regulations, e.g. EV subsidies that make cars cheaper for plebs, solar panel subsidies that make powering their own house cheaper for plebs.

              - Elites are not increasing their level of control over plebs via any of this.

              - Concerns around climate change are originating from scientists looking at the data. The belief of elites is explained by them hearing what scientists are saying. But what scientists are saying cannot be explained by elites wanting them to say that (you might find 1 in a 1000 scientists who would say anything the funder told him to, but as a scientist I can say that the absolutely overwhelming majority of scientists are interested in the data and truth and focused on solely that to the point of autism). The scientific consensus on climate change cannot be explained by corruption of scientists nor by elites willing it so.

              The facts are not in any way consistent with the claims conservatives here are making. Your claims seem rather obviously factually false.
              I'm not so sure solar power and EVs are practical or even affordable for common folks, nor do I trust anything you say about it because you're typically wrong about a lot of things, nor I am sure EVs and solar power will be enough to fulfill the "accelerated agenda" that the UN is pushing down everyone's throat. Again, if subsidies easily solved the problem as you keep claiming it would, there wouldn't be much a problem or cause for hysterics about it, nor would western developed countries continue falling short of their committed goals, which is the cause of all the hysterics.

              As far as "Elites are not increasing their level of control over plebs via any of this;" we'll see what happens and what sort of policies are enacted between now and 2030. It should be interesting.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I'm not so sure solar power and EVs are practical or even affordable for common folks
                The house I rent has solar panels on the roof, and I drive a hybrid. About a quarter of the people I know now have solar power installed. A similar amount now own hybrids or EVs.

                Costs tend to start at around $5k US for solar panels, or half that for cars, which seems generally 'affordable for common folks'.

                if subsidies easily solved the problem as you keep claiming it would, there wouldn't be much a problem or cause for hysterics about it
                Well I agree there's not cause for your hysterics about imaginary increased elite control of plebs.

                nor would western developed countries continue falling short of their committed goals
                Western governments seem unwilling to get out their chequebooks and dole out the necessary subsidies: In the US, Biden finally managed to get a little bit of government spending on the subject passed last year. Republicans opposed it because they seem to have heart palpitations about the deficit anytime anyone ever suggests spending money to help the plebs (but want to double the spending anytime anyone suggests spending money on the military industrial complex, big pharma, or the oil & gas industry).

                As far as "Elites are not increasing their level of control over plebs via any of this;" we'll see what happens and what sort of policies are enacted between now and 2030.
                Ah, so the imaginary increasing control of the elites is supposed to be taking place in the future according to you claims? It's not supposed to be something we can observe now?

                This sounds exactly like your post-covid claim that elites were going to control everyone with endlessly recurring pandemics, with you predicting that we would be in a new and different pandemic by the end of this year... aaaand we're not. You were just full of it. At a certain point you should sit down and ask yourself why you seem to feel the need to make constantly false crackpot predictions about the elites seizing power through various different unlikely means.
                Last edited by Starlight; 12-11-2023, 03:40 AM.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  The house I rent has solar panels on the roof, and I drive a hybrid. About a quarter of the people I know now have solar power installed. A similar amount now own hybrids or EVs.

                  Costs tend to start at around $5k US for solar panels, or half that for cars, which seems generally 'affordable for common folks'.

                  Well I agree there's not cause for your hysterics about imaginary increased elite control of plebs.

                  Western governments seem unwilling to get out their chequebooks and dole out the necessary subsidies: In the US, Biden finally managed to get a little bit of government spending on the subject passed last year. Republicans opposed it because they seem to have heart palpitations about the deficit anytime anyone ever suggests spending money to help the plebs (but want to double the spending anytime anyone suggests spending money on the military industrial complex, big pharma, or the oil & gas industry).

                  Ah, so the imaginary increasing control of the elites is supposed to be taking place in the future according to you claims? It's not supposed to be something we can observe now?

                  This sounds exactly like your post-covid claim that elites were going to control everyone with endlessly recurring pandemics, with you predicting that we would be in a new and different pandemic by the end of this year... aaaand we're not. You were just full of it. At a certain point you should sit down and ask yourself why you seem to feel the need to make constantly false crackpot predictions about the elites seizing power through various different unlikely means.
                  Since when do western governments care about debt and deficits and not like to dole out money they don't have? With US alone in 30+ TRILLION debt and rapidly growing, your claim that western governments don't throw money away on frivolous bullcrap is downright laughable. The Dems had the house and a democrat in the WH for two years. Maybe they don't fight climate change like you feel they should either because it isn't simple as you claim it is (likely the case), or they have some other agenda for all the "end of the world" hysterics and so spending money on subsidies is not part of that agenda.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    With US alone in 30+ TRILLION debt and rapidly growing, your claim that western governments don't throw money away on frivolous bullcrap is downright laughable.
                    They don't mind spending it on the elites: Wall St bailouts, military-industrial complex, big pharma. Getting politicians to spend it on something that benefits the average person is hard though.

                    The Dems had the house and a democrat in the WH for two years. Maybe they don't fight climate change like you feel they should either because it isn't simple as you claim it is (likely the case), or they have some other agenda for all the "end of the world" hysterics and so spending money on subsidies is not part of that agenda.
                    The politicians don't fight much for climate change because there isn't big donor money in it for them. The elites don't care much about climate change because it won't affect them much, it will just affect the plebs. So there's no huge lobbyist group bribing congress to take action on climate change. Congress is really unwilling to spend money on things that they're not being bribed to spend money on, when they could be spending money on big pharma and the military industrial complex and Wall St, where their rich elite donors work.

                    That is why the loudest voice in congress for climate change action (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) is a poor young freshman congressperson, rather than the elites. And, likewise why the heavily-bribed rich elites, like Pelosi, were so dismissive of climate-change action, infamously calling the idea of spending some government money on anti climate change policies, sarcastically, "the green dream, or whatever they call it".

                    Similarly in my own country: The leader has just changed within the last month, to a multi-millionaire, and one of his highest-priority actions has been the removal the government subsidies for EVs, making such cars more expensive for the plebs. Likewise he's going to remove a whole bunch of the previous government's climate change targets. As a member of the elite, he doesn't care about climate change.

                    Likewise in climate change activism, the loudest voice in the world isn't some champagne-sipping elite, it's a random 20 year old girl from Sweden (Greta Thunberg).
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      I'd tend to agree that it seems a real issue... but at this point it seems pretty clear to me it won't be stopped. People just aren't willing to do what's necessary to stop it, and even if they did, they couldn't get everyone to go along with it. At this point, might as well just try to invest a lot of money into pre-emptively finding ways to deal with the fallout. An ounce of prevention might be worth a pound of cure but if you can't do the prevention you can at least try to get the cure ready ahead of time.
                      The reason people aren't willing to do anything about climate change is because, first of all, there is no evidence to support the doom and gloom predictions, and, in fact quite a lot of evidence against it. By all accounts, what we're seeing is nothing more than a perfectly normal and natural variation in the earth's climate cycle. And secondly, there is no evidence that any of the proposed "solutions", which are, for the most part, prohibitively costly and will negatively impact most people's quality of life, will have any significant impact on the global climate.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        Yeah, they should take 3 months off and ride their bikes to it.
                        Typically folks like that arrive in a limo that parks around the corner and a bike is pulled out of so the faker can be photographed arriving on their bike.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          The reason people aren't willing to do anything about climate change is because, first of all, there is no evidence to support the doom and gloom predictions, and, in fact quite a lot of evidence against it. By all accounts, what we're seeing is nothing more than a perfectly normal and natural variation in the earth's climate cycle. And secondly, there is no evidence that any of the proposed "solutions", which are, for the most part, prohibitively costly and will negatively impact most people's quality of life, will have any significant impact on the global climate.
                          They can never give you even a hint of a cost / benefits analysis - it's all about emotions and fear. Just - shut up and fork over the money or the earth will be dead in x years.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                            The elites push for both because they benefit from it either way. The people who own the gas companies are quite often the same ones pushing for Green technology. Just like how they pushed for the production of more plastics that they could sell to people while running recycling companies. The recycling industry is a scam and has actively been making things worse. Not only do most plastics not get recycled because they just ship most of it to China but most plastics can't be recycled anyway. The shipment of plastics from location to location also increases the amount of carbon released.
                            Heard a report years ago that US recycling companies ship tons of garbage to China, and China just dumps it in the ocean.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                              I agree that seems to be a common point of view here.

                              No part of that idea seems plausible, and every part of it seems contrary to observed facts. I observe:

                              - Plebs are benefiting from climate change regulations, e.g. EV subsidies that make cars cheaper for plebs, solar panel subsidies that make powering their own house cheaper for plebs.

                              - Elites are not increasing their level of control over plebs via any of this.

                              - Concerns around climate change are originating from scientists looking at the data. The belief of elites is explained by them hearing what scientists are saying. But what scientists are saying cannot be explained by elites wanting them to say that (you might find 1 in a 1000 scientists who would say anything the funder told him to, but as a scientist I can say that the absolutely overwhelming majority of scientists are interested in the data and truth and focused on solely that to the point of autism). The scientific consensus on climate change cannot be explained by corruption of scientists nor by elites willing it so.

                              The facts are not in any way consistent with the claims conservatives here are making. Your claims seem rather obviously factually false.
                              For the majority of working class people, investing in electric vehicles and solar panels is cost prohibitive, even with government subsidies, and does not lead to a significant decrease in living expenses. And in the case of electric vehicles, it actually decreases quality of life since it severely limits one's ability to travel long distances.
                              Last edited by Mountain Man; 12-11-2023, 09:53 AM.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                For the majority of working class people, investing in electric vehicles and solar panels is cost prohibitive, even with government subsidies, and does not lead to a significant decrease in living expenses. And in the case of electric vehicles, it actually decreases quality of life since severely limits one's ability to travel long distances.
                                EV Sales Are in a Slump — Why Aren’t More Car Buyers Going Electric?

                                Electric vehicles used to be in hot demand because supply was limited and early adopters were eager to try the new tech or shift to more environmentally-friendly transportation. These enthusiasts were often willing to pay luxury prices for their EVs.

                                But for automakers to capture the mass market, EVs have to outcompete gas-powered on cost and quality. When gas prices are high, it makes more sense for buyers to consider switching to an electric car. Gas prices have been fairly low in 2023 — they're currently down around 30 cents per gallon compared to a year ago, on average nationally — so there's less incentive to go electric.

                                According to experts, here are some of the big reasons the demand for EVs isn't as high as some want it to be:
                                • EVs are too expensive: Joseph McCabe, president of AutoForecast Solutions, says vehicle cost is the No. 1 barrier to EV adoption. EVs usually cost at least $10,000 more than their comparable gas counterparts, he says.
                                • Charging is expensive: If you can charge your EV at home, there are considerable fuel savings that come with going electric: You’d spend about 3x more on gas than the cost of home charging. However, the costs are about the same if you’re using a public charger, and getting fuel at a gas station is much more reliable and less time-consuming.
                                • Charging is inconvenient: Fast chargers are still hard to find in many more remote parts of the country. According to AAA, 56% of people say the lack of convenient charging is a top reason for not going electric.
                                • Depreciation: The average used EV price dropped nearly 20% in the past year, according to iSeeCars.com. Potential EV buyers have good reason to worry their cars won’t hold their value well as the technology improves. “The used market is not as strong for electric vehicles, and as a result the depreciation is higher,” says Greg Brannon, director of automotive engineering research at AAA. “That's your single biggest operating expense.”
                                • Range anxiety: Some high-end EVs promise 300+ miles of range on a single charge, but even that is not enough to cover a common drive like San Francisco to Los Angeles. You’d have to take a charging break, potentially adding 30 minutes or an hour to an already long drive.
                                • Hybrids are more popular: According to Adam Ragozzino, principal analyst, batteries and electric powertrains at Wards Intelligence, Tesla isn’t the best-selling electrified vehicle brand in the U.S. It’s Toyota, which has over 20 hybrid models and is focused on these cars in the near term, given that they offer good fuel efficiency and are capable of making long trips without requiring charging breaks. Hybrids are not only more practical and familiar to drivers than EVs, they also tend to be cheaper.


                                My wife drives a Toyota Rav4 Hybrid and LOVES it --- but electric vehicles? No.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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