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Trump Found Liable For Real Estate Fraud; Business Certificates Dissolved

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    You and Sam are proving what I said is accurate.
    Proving what? That you don't understand how a courtroom works and think that a defendant gets to grandstand, ramble, insult people, and 'stand up' to a judge?

    Comment


    • [QUOTE=Bill the Cat;n1536492]

      You don't seem to know what QAnon is even claiming Frank... They do not say that the ENTIRE judicial system is rigged by the Democrats, just that people like Letitia James shop judges to find one who is sympathetic to her far-left bias, and then that bias directly influences their decisions.

      I dsiagree, because the QAnon conspiracy plays in their claim concerning ENTIRE government and the Judicial system is controlled by Deep State. Tthe reason ALL judges all over the country determined the election was legitimate and not in any way fraudulent.



      All I said was that time will tell if they are ultimately guilty after appeals. You don't seem to be a big fan of our judicial system's "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...
      I so not believe appeals come into play concerning this tax fraud case, but nonetheless the following represents one of many nails in the coffin.

      You have to remember this tax fraud case is just a matter of simple math in tax


      Source: https://www.nydailynews.com/2023/10/06/trump-drops-suit-against-judge-but-appeals-pre-trial-decision-in-250m-ny-civil-fraud-case/



      Trump exec admits committing tax fraud because he feared getting fired


      By DAVE GOLDINER | dgoldiner@nydailynews.com | New York Daily News
      PUBLISHED: October 6, 2023 at 11:59 a.m. | UPDATED: October 7, 2023 at 8:05 p.m.
      A former top Trump Organization executive Friday testified that he repeatedly committed tax fraud at the direction of then-chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg in a major blow to the defense at former President Donald Trump’s $250 million civil fraud trial.

      The developments came as a federal judge in the case involving classified documents at Trump’s Florida estate honored a request to temporarily pause any litigation.

      Ex-controller Jeffrey McConney first claimed he didn’t know it was illegal for him to dramatically overestimate the value of Trump-owned assets like golf courses, Trump Tower apartments and luxe real-estate developments.

      But under sharp questioning, McConney admitted he previously testified under oath that he knew he was breaking the law. He claimed he feared being fired if he resisted Weisselberg’s demands.

      Weisselberg, who served several months in prison after he was convicted in another Trump-related tax fraud scheme, is set to take the stand Tuesday after the blockbuster case pauses for the Columbus Day holiday weekend.

      McConney’s testimony appears to be a major boost for New York Attorney General Letitia James because he corroborated prosecution claims that Trump and his acolytes routinely and improperly inflated the value of properties to gain better terms from lenders and insurers.

      Trump counters that his properties are mostly worth far more than their valuation, in part due to their association with his brand.

      © Copyright Original Source


      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

        All I said was that time will tell if they are ultimately guilty after appeals. You don't seem to be a big fan of our judicial system's "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...
        ....you were writing to Shuny.......

        Trumpy has been 'found to have deceived for money'. That's a finding. If he wants to appeal against that 'finding' then he can appeal, in fact I suppose he can appeal all the way up to the Supreme Court system? If he has enough friends up there then 'who knows?'

        But what I'm interested in is 'Who do you think ought to be able to cheat your systems for funds, or to evade taxation?' If you let, say, everybody on benefits hold down secret jobs and incomes then maybe you should let a massively rich mammon lover like Trumpy feed from the system as well? You can worry about how to keep your giant military going another day.

        What I need to figure out is 'Who would you expect to get punished for gaining from the systems by cheating?'
        And 'Who would you seek to get punished for withholding funds from your Revenue services?' ........................... just your democrat politicians, or who?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

          You don't seem to know what QAnon is even claiming Frank... They do not say that the ENTIRE judicial system is rigged by the Democrats, just that people like Letitia James shop judges to find one who is sympathetic to her far-left bias, and then that bias directly influences their decisions.






          All I said was that time will tell if they are ultimately guilty after appeals. You don't seem to be a big fan of our judicial system's "innocent until proven guilty" mantra...
          Innocent and guilty are not part of the picture here. This is a civil matter, there will be a finding of either liable or not liable

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
            Proving what? That you don't understand how a courtroom works and think that a defendant gets to grandstand, ramble, insult people, and 'stand up' to a judge?
            LOL. I work at a law firm. I have been at more trials than you have watched on TV.

            I was talking about how each "side" of reporters were characterizing Trump's actions on the stand. Not what is "allowed"

            I am saying that if all we have are biased stories from each side, then we can't know for sure what exactly happened in the courtroom.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              LOL. I work at a law firm. I have been at more trials than you have watched on TV.

              I was talking about how each "side" of reporters were characterizing Trump's actions on the stand. Not what is "allowed"

              I am saying that if all we have are biased stories from each side, then we can't know for sure what exactly happened in the courtroom.
              I haven't sat in on any civil trials, but I sat in on a lot of criminal trials. In those, the judges tended to give a lot of latitude to defendants whenever they took the stand. Perhaps it was simply courtesy, or perhaps it's because the defendants might stumble and implicate themselves. I recall one murder trial where the defendant took the stand and he rambled (he was actually representing himself!). He went on for an hour, babbling. He didn't trip up on details, but he proved to the courtroom that he was a self-absorbed sociopath.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                I haven't sat in on any civil trials, but I sat in on a lot of criminal trials. In those, the judges tended to give a lot of latitude to defendants whenever they took the stand. Perhaps it was simply courtesy, or perhaps it's because the defendants might stumble and implicate themselves. I recall one murder trial where the defendant took the stand and he rambled (he was actually representing himself!). He went on for an hour, babbling. He didn't trip up on details, but he proved to the courtroom that he was a self-absorbed sociopath.
                When someone represents themselves the court usually gives them extra leeway. But even so they usually end up screwing things up.

                My point was that we really don't know how "bad" it got in the courtroom since all we can go by are news reports and different sides (liberal / conservatives) are giving differently colored accounts.

                But Trump is known for being an ego maniac and I can easily see him thinking he is in control in the courtroom and talking over the attorney and judge. Just like he keeps badmouthing the very judge that controls his fate since his lawyer for some reason screwed up and requested a bench trial instead of a jury trial. Usually it is best to keep your opinion of a judge to yourself in cases like that.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                  Meh. Given how much Trump has been targeted *even during his campaign*, who knows. I wouldn't put the accusations past Trump but I wouldn't put it past Democrats to systematically target Trump into oblivion.
                  Ah, this has nothing to do with democrats. Unlike the Trump administration, democrats, or Biden, doesn't try to control or direct the law, the DOJ, or State Attorneys General are independent of political party's. And if you were capable of peeping outside that right wing bubble you've been living in you wouldn't be saying ignorant things like "well I wouldn't put it past Trump" as if it wasn't obvious, because you'd be able to see facts for yourself, which obviously you are unable to.
                  The interesting thing though is that you were blind toTrumps "manipulation of the DOJ" under Bill Barr and how he fired Comey and Jeff Sessions, for not doing his bidding. You're blind to all Trump did, the fake electors scheme, the attempt to use the VP in that scheme, the insurrection scheme to obstruct the confirmation process, the stealing of classified, highly classified documents, the obstruction of the FBI in trying to retrieve them, his tax fraud cases, rape convictions, Trump university grift, Trump charity grift. It's hard to believe that people who are supposedly paying attention to politics can be so enthralled by a con man that they blind themselves to all his lies and criminality. It's not only difficult to believe you could actually be that blind, but I'm actually embarrassed for you all.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                    Ah, this has nothing to do with democrats. Unlike the Trump administration, democrats, or Biden, doesn't try to control or direct the law, the DOJ, or State Attorneys General are independent of political party's.
                    When people literally campaign on targeting Trump, it is political.

                    And if you were capable of peeping outside that right wing bubble you've been living in you wouldn't be saying ignorant things like "well I wouldn't put it past Trump" as if it wasn't obvious, because you'd be able to see facts for yourself, which obviously you are unable to.
                    Perhaps you should check the date on the comment to which you're responding. In regards to the loans, banks executives agreeing to Trump's valuations without doing due diligence is on the executives shoulders as far as responsibility.


                    The interesting thing though is that you were blind toTrumps "manipulation of the DOJ" under Bill Barr and how he fired Comey and Jeff Sessions, for not doing his bidding.
                    Comey failed to do his job and allowed HRC get away with gross negligence, destruction of government property, and objection of justice.


                    You're blind to all Trump did, the fake electors scheme,
                    At no point have I said anything about the fake electors. Again, as to the comment, we're at the intersection of where politicization of the government and otherwise criminal act activity.

                    the insurrection scheme to obstruct the confirmation process,
                    There was no insurrection. Pulling a fire alarm interrupted a government proceeding, so by your logic, that was an "insurrection".


                    the stealing of classified, highly classified documents,

                    Yes, Biden stole classified documents.


                    the obstruction of the FBI in trying to retrieve them,
                    Trump should have put them in a private server, then you'd have no problem either them.

                    his tax fraud cases,
                    Yes, Biden's DOJ and IRS hundred investigation to Hunter's tax fraud.

                    ]rape convictions
                    Being found civilly liable in a highly partisan environment for a incident decades prior with no police report under an ex post facto law that at most was sexual assault is not rape.

                    Trump university grift,
                    Don't you mean Chinese gifts to the university where Biden stored classified documents?

                    Trump charity grift.
                    I think you mean BLM's charity grift.

                    It's hard to believe that people who are supposedly paying attention to politics can be so enthralled by a con man that they blind themselves to all his lies and criminality. It's not only difficult to believe you could actually be that blind, but I'm actually embarrassed for you all.
                    You seem to think I hold Trump in high esteem, for all I care, Trump, HRC, Sleepy Joe, and Hunter can all share the same cell and be bunk mates.
                    P1) If , then I win.

                    P2)

                    C) I win.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                      When people literally campaign on targeting Trump, it is political.
                      Is this a trick question? No. Actually thats what campaigns do, they target their opponents.

                      Perhaps you should check the date on the comment to which you're responding. In regards to the loans, banks executives agreeing to Trump's valuations without doing due diligence is on the executives shoulders as far as responsibility.
                      Bologna! What he did was against the law regardless of what the banks did or didn't do.


                      Comey failed to do his job and allowed HRC get away with gross negligence, destruction of government property, and objection of justice.
                      First off, that's not why Trump fired him. When Trump won the election he welcomed Comey to his administration. He fired him for going after General Flynn when Trump asked to leave Flynn alone. So wrong again. Comer wasn't loyal to Trump, and that is a no no to a wannabe dictator.


                      At no point have I said anything about the fake electors. Again, as to the comment, we're at the intersection of where politicization of the government and otherwise criminal act activity.
                      Right, you just ignore facts and talk in general terms suggesting Trump did nothing wrong, he's just being politically targeted. Wrong! Anyone else would already be in prison now just for that scheme alone.

                      There was no insurrection. Pulling a fire alarm interrupted a government proceeding, so by your logic, that was an "insurrection"
                      Yes, there was, and Trump called the mob there on that specific day for just that purpose and once it happened he, as Commander an Chief, did absolutely nothing to stop it for 3 hours even when staff pleaded with him to call them off or call in back-up.You must be aware of that, I'm sure.



                      Yes, Biden stole classified documents.
                      Maybe Biden purposely took, and maybe he didn't but he didn't obstruct the FBI from retrieving them once it was revealed they were missing and with Trump we "know" that he not only purposely stole them and then he Obstructed the FBI attempt to retrieve them by hiding them and lying about having them and conspiring with others to hide them etc. And that's the difference, that's what Trump is being indicted for. Not only that, but heshowed those classified documents to people without clearance, people who then shared that info with many others putting U.S. national security at risk. I'm sure you're aware of all that as well.


                      Trump should have put them in a private server, then you'd have no problem either them.
                      Denial and whataboutism. Clinton had them on her server as communications while doing her job as Secretary of State, not stealing them for personal reasons and there were very few highly classified documents. Totally different case, but enough to give you a poor argument in support of Trump blatant theft and lying obstruction. Clinton also probably lost that election because Comey, against policy, made that investigation public in the midst of a presidential campaign.

                      Yes, Biden's DOJ and IRS hundred investigation to Hunter's tax fraud.
                      Why, because someone, some right wing talking head told you that? Trump appointed the prosecutor investigating Hunter, and President Biden left that same prosecutoron the case so as to prove he wasn't interfering. But some Bozo told you Biden interfered so you swallowed it. Why? Because that's what you want to believe, that's all.

                      Being found civilly liable in a highly partisan environment for a incident decades prior with no police report under an ex post facto law that at most was sexual assault is not rape.
                      He was found guilty of rape by the court as it is defined by law. You can always make excuses, as we can see you have a knack for doing, but you can't make up your own interpretation of law just because you don't like the facts.

                      Don't you mean Chinese gifts to the university where Biden stored classified documents?
                      You see, whataboutism isn't a defense. You want to argue Biden is guilty of something fine, we can argue that, but that not a defense of Trump. All that shows is that you know of Trumps guilt, but just don't care because you're a biased tribalist who supports a treasonous ex president.

                      I think you mean BLM's charity grift.
                      Like I said, you know of his guilt, have no argument, and don't really care. You make that obvious.

                      You seem to think I hold Trump in high esteem, for all I care, Trump, HRC, Sleepy Joe, and Hunter can all share the same cell and be bunk mates.
                      If you didn't, then you would face the facts and acknowledge them rather than trying to defend him with bogus arguments. You give yourself and your esteem for Trump away!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                        Is this a trick question? No. Actually thats what campaigns do, they target their opponents.
                        Thank you for conceding Trump was politically targeted.


                        Bologna! What he did was against the law regardless of what the banks did or didn't do.

                        Banks not an independent valuation is not Trump's failure. Also, seeing as he paid the loans back, there was no victim.




                        First off, that's not why Trump fired him. When Trump won the election he welcomed Comey to his administration. He fired him for going after General Flynn when Trump asked to leave Flynn alone. So wrong again. Comer wasn't loyal to Trump, and that is a no no to a wannabe dictator.
                        Comey should have been fired for not recommending prosecution.


                        Right, you just ignore facts and talk in general terms suggesting Trump did nothing wrong, he's just being politically targeted. Wrong! Anyone else would already be in prison now just for that scheme alone.

                        At no point have I suggested Trump has done nothing wrong in all cases. The politicalization by the Left os of greater concern. The fake electors allegations are probably true, and for that I have no issue with Trump being charged and convicted. He can still run for the Presidency from jail just like Eugene V Debs.


                        Yes, there was, and Trump called the mob there on that specific day for just that purpose and once it happened he, as Commander an Chief, did absolutely nothing to stop it for 3 hours even when staff pleaded with him to call them off or call in back-up.You must be aware of that, I'm sure.
                        The only person who called for entering the Capitol and directed people to the Capitol to that end was Ray Epps.



                        Maybe Biden purposely took, and maybe he didn't but he didn't obstruct the FBI from retrieving them once it was revealed they were missing and with Trump we "know" that he not only purposely stole them and then he Obstructed the FBI attempt to retrieve them by hiding them and lying about having them and conspiring with others to hide them etc. And that's the difference, that's what Trump is being indicted for. Not only that, but heshowed those classified documents to people without clearance, people who then shared that info with many others putting U.S. national security at risk. I'm sure you're aware of all that as well.
                        Keeping documents in Chinese funded office is an actual national security risk, let alone keeping documents in a garage to which Hunter had access. We also don't know Biden has at the house as to the fact no visitor logs were kept. If Trump had kept them on a private server and then cleaned the server, you'd have no issue.


                        Denial and whataboutism. Clinton had them on her server as communications while doing her job as Secretary of State, not stealing them for personal reasons and there were very few highly classified documents.
                        Maintaining documents on a private server at a residence was not part of the job.

                        Totally different case, but enough to give you a poor argument in support of Trump blatant theft and lying obstruction. Clinton also probably lost that election because Comey, against policy, made that investigation public in the midst of a presidential campaign.
                        Unlikely. As if said, for all I care, all four can share a jail cell.

                        Why, because someone, some right wing talking head told you that? Trump appointed the prosecutor investigating Hunter, and President Biden left that same prosecutoron the case so as to prove he wasn't interfering. But some Bozo told you Biden interfered so you swallowed it. Why? Because that's what you want to believe, that's all.
                        You seem to forget who nominated the individual. Trump rubber stamping a nomination means little.



                        He was found guilty of rape by the court as it is defined by law.
                        He wasn't found guilty of rape precisely because how the law defines rape.


                        You can always make excuses, as we can see you have a knack for doing, but you can't make up your own interpretation of law just because you don't like the facts.
                        I've read relevant portions of the decisions. The law defines rape as penile penetration. At no point have I made "excuses". If she considers herself a victim, she should have gone to the police. She alleged to have had DNA evidence which she didn't give to the police at the time. Regretting an interaction isn't rape. The store probably would have had cameras leading to the dressing room area as clothes are commonly stolen and Trump forcing her to the dressing rooms would have likely been seen.



                        You see, whataboutism isn't a defense. You want to argue Biden is guilty of something fine, we can argue that, but that not a defense of Trump. All that shows is that you know of Trumps guilt, but just don't care because you're a biased tribalist who supports a treasonous ex president.
                        My concern is the politicalization and weaponization of the government. If Trump is guilty, I don't care, he can go to jail. You seem to not care about charity grift unless Trump does it.

                        Like I said, you know of his guilt, have no argument, and don't really care. You make that obvious.
                        What I care about is equal application of the law.

                        If you didn't, then you would face the facts and acknowledge them rather than trying to defend him with bogus arguments. You give yourself and your esteem for Trump away!
                        At no point have I defend Trump.
                        P1) If , then I win.

                        P2)

                        C) I win.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                          Thank you for conceding Trump was politically targeted.
                          Oh don't be such a dope. Every political candidate targets their opponent. What are you new? Perhaps you mean something else by "targeting" other than pointing out the flaws of their opponents.



                          Banks not an independent valuation is not Trump's failure. Also, seeing as he paid the loans back, there was no victim.
                          It's a crime my friend, whether you agree with it or not and Trump knowingly violated that law. Your bias is showing. If that were Biden you'd be praising the Attorney General and so would i be. You don't seem to like a two tiered justice system, except for when you do.




                          Comey should have been fired for not recommending prosecution.
                          You're welcome to that opinion, but again, not why Trump fired him. He fired him for being disloyal to him, the wannabe dictator, for not letting The treasonous Gen. Flynn off the hook.



                          At no point have I suggested Trump has done nothing wrong in all cases. The politicalization by the Left os of greater concern. The fake electors allegations are probably true, and for that I have no issue with Trump being charged and convicted. He can still run for the Presidency from jail just like Eugene V Debs.
                          Yeah, the fake electors alone would prevent him from being President. But how about his conspiracy scheme to overthrow the Georgia election, his insurrection scheme to attack the Capital and sit by as it happened without lifting a finger to stop it for 3 hours. How about his obstructing the FBI from retrieving the highly Classified documents which we know that he knowingly stole.? Seems you have, like all you Trumpsters, all kinds of excuses for supporting this treasonous con man.


                          The only person who called for entering the Capitol and directed people to the Capitol to that end was Ray Epps.
                          And there you go! It was all Ray Epps who planned, conspired, called the mob there, sent them all to the Capitol, told them to fight like hell or lose their country and did nothing to stop the onslaught because Trump really won the election. Yeah that must be it.



                          Keeping documents in Chinese funded office is an actual national security risk, let alone keeping documents in a garage to which Hunter had access. We also don't know Biden has at the house as to the fact no visitor logs were kept. If Trump had kept them on a private server and then cleaned the server, you'd have no issue.
                          Oh God, here we go again. Trump is being prosecuted for obstruction in trying to hide from and lie to, and conspire with others in order to obstruct the retrieval of the documents. Get it straight. Had he returned them when asked he wouldn't be being prosecuted even though we know he stole them intentionally.


                          Maintaining documents on a private server at a residence was not part of the job.
                          Okay. Done with your whataboutism. Even if you ignorantly believe the two crimes to be equal, you defend Trumps as not being a crime, he's just being targeted. I'm done with that nonsense.

                          Unlikely. As if said, for all I care, all four can share a jail cell.
                          Yes, I can tell by the way you defend all his criminal schemes.

                          You seem to forget who nominated the individual. Trump rubber stamping a nomination means little.
                          Trump didn't rubber stamping the nomination, he appointed him prosecutor in the case. You guys come up with excuses for everything if it doesn't go the way you want.



                          He wasn't found guilty of rape precisely because how the law defines rape.
                          He was found guilty of rape as defend by law and regardless why would you even attempt to defend in such a way what he actually did.


                          I've read relevant portions of the decisions. The law defines rape as penile penetration. At no point have I made "excuses". If she considers herself a victim, she should have gone to the police. She alleged to have had DNA evidence which she didn't give to the police at the time. Regretting an interaction isn't rape. The store probably would have had cameras leading to the dressing room area as clothes are commonly stolen and Trump forcing her to the dressing rooms would have likely been seen.
                          He was found guilty, please stop with the excuses. It's sickening.



                          My concern is the politicalization and weaponization of the government. If Trump is guilty, I don't care, he can go to jail. You seem to not care about charity grift unless Trump does it.
                          No, that's not your concern, your concern is defending Trump by arguing, hey Biden did this or Biden did that, which of course is nonsense.

                          What I care about is equal application of the law.
                          See above. You've shown what your true concern is and that is simply defending the treasonous Ex- President.

                          At no point have I defend Trump.

                          Comment


                          • Lying about your real estate assets during a lawsuit over real estate asset fraud is to be expected, I suppose, but ... y'all.

                            ScreenShot00114.png
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              Lying about your real estate assets during a lawsuit over real estate asset fraud is to be expected, I suppose, but ... y'all.

                              ScreenShot00114.png
                              Looking it up online it says it is a 72 story building too.

                              70 (+2 below ground)
                              1,111,675 sq ft
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_Wall_Street


                              The 72-story tower located in the heart of the Financial District offers 1.3 million square feet of Class A office space, and also includes 5,000 square feet of retail.
                              https://www.metro-manhattan.com/buil...rump-building/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                Looking it up online it says it is a 72 story building too.

                                70 (+2 below ground)
                                1,111,675 sq ft
                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_Wall_Street


                                The 72-story tower located in the heart of the Financial District offers 1.3 million square feet of Class A office space, and also includes 5,000 square feet of retail.
                                https://www.metro-manhattan.com/buil...rump-building/
                                I don't doubt the 72-story claim is part of a common pitch among Trump Org executives but it doesn't much matter whether the truth skews one way or another here: Trump Org is either lying about the building being 72 stories in its marketing or it's lying about the building being 63 stories in its SEC/tax documents.

                                Relevant to the discussion, here's how Trump Org seems to be trying to get away classifying its hotel in Vegas as being 64 stories:

                                ScreenShot00116.png

                                -Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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