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Trump Found Liable For Real Estate Fraud; Business Certificates Dissolved

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  • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
    I have never once had anyone accept my word on the value of property that I owned, either for a loan or for insurance, for taxes or when I've tried to sell it. New York must be a weird place if it is common there that owners set their own property values.
    The more one looks into this case, the less sense it makes, especially when there was no fraud, no injured parties, no damages, and the judge inserted his own arbitrary valuation of Trump's properties into the decision.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      The more one looks into this case, the less sense it makes, especially when there was no fraud, no injured parties, no damages, and the judge inserted his own arbitrary valuation of Trump's properties into the decision.
      The claim that the judge made a valuation of the property, let alone an "arbitrary valuation", has likewise been mentioned repeatedly and rebutted repeatedly, using citations from the ruling. Continuing repetition is unserious, except as an attempt to remodel reality by incessant repetition.

      -Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post

        Where do you get the idea there are no injuries? It's tax fraud, we are all injured in that sense. It's also insurance fraud. And whether the banks appraise the properties or not the borrower is required by law to file truthful financial disclosures including "current property values" as well as ones own personal net worth.
        And this is not the first time Trump has been convicted of tax fraud. He was convicted several times including just a year or 2 ago when he was fined 1.6 million dollars. He was also fined some 20 million for his Trump University scheme, and then, I can't remember how many millions for his Trump charity scheme. He's ripped off nearly everyone whose ever done business with him. The guy is a crook, pure and simple, and now he's a treasonous ex president who tried to rip off the U.S electorate.
        Tax fraud? How is it tax fraud? He was getting a bank loan. If he valued his property MORE than it was worth, the only thing that would affect tax wise would be to RAISE his property tax. Is paying MORE taxes than you need to "fraud" JimL? And property tax is set by the state auditor, NOT Trump. He can't undervalue his property for tax purposes. The state has their own appraisal methods. You seem to know nothing about how loans or appraisals work. Or how taxes work.

        And same with insurance. If he overvalues his property, then his insurance premiums would be HIGHER.
        Last edited by Sparko; 10-02-2023, 10:01 AM.

        Comment


        • Well, it looks like Trump won't be getting a jury of his peers after all ...

          ... because he declined to demand one.

          Source: Trump Won’t Have a Jury in His NY Fraud Trial Because His Lawyers Didn’t Request One. Sarah Rumpf. Mediaite.com. 2023.10.02

          Monday morning as the trial began, Engoron confirmed that he would be the finder of fact instead of a jury because “nobody asked for” a jury trial.

          It’s not entirely clear why Trump’s attorneys didn’t request a jury trial. As Los Angeles Times senior legal affairs columnist Harry Litman noted, “[i]t’s incredibly easy” to do so and only requires you to “just check a box on a form.”

          “Hard to believe that Trump understood his lawyers hadn’t done it when he’s been savaging the judge who is now the factfinder in his huge fraud trial,” Litman added.

          As the trial began, commentators speculated whether Trump’s attorneys were engaging in some sort of strategy because they didn’t believe they would like the options they’d find in a New York City (i.e., liberal-leaning) jury pool or if they really did just forget to check the little box.

          CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig told Mediaite he had heard these theories and “nobody has any way to know that,” but he did find it “interesting” that this might have been a deliberate strategy. “Wouldn’t shock me,” he added.

          © Copyright Original Source

          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
            Well, it looks like Trump won't be getting a jury of his peers after all ...

            ... because he declined to demand one.

            Source: Trump Won’t Have a Jury in His NY Fraud Trial Because His Lawyers Didn’t Request One. Sarah Rumpf. Mediaite.com. 2023.10.02

            Monday morning as the trial began, Engoron confirmed that he would be the finder of fact instead of a jury because “nobody asked for” a jury trial.

            It’s not entirely clear why Trump’s attorneys didn’t request a jury trial. As Los Angeles Times senior legal affairs columnist Harry Litman noted, “[i]t’s incredibly easy” to do so and only requires you to “just check a box on a form.”

            “Hard to believe that Trump understood his lawyers hadn’t done it when he’s been savaging the judge who is now the factfinder in his huge fraud trial,” Litman added.

            As the trial began, commentators speculated whether Trump’s attorneys were engaging in some sort of strategy because they didn’t believe they would like the options they’d find in a New York City (i.e., liberal-leaning) jury pool or if they really did just forget to check the little box.

            CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig told Mediaite he had heard these theories and “nobody has any way to know that,” but he did find it “interesting” that this might have been a deliberate strategy. “Wouldn’t shock me,” he added.

            © Copyright Original Source

            Honestly a tossup to me on whether they deliberately did it as a strategy, or really are just that incompetent. Given some of the absurd incompetence we saw around this time last year at the start of the stolen classified documents case by the lawyers he hired, there's a good chance it's either.

            Comment


            • Apparently an appellate judge forced a reluctant Engoron to dismiss anything related to transactions prior to 2014, which Trump says is 80% of the case.

              https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._the_case.html
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Apparently an appellate judge forced a reluctant Engoron to dismiss anything related to transactions prior to 2014, which Trump says is 80% of the case.

                https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._the_case.html
                Trump talking straight out of his behind, as usual, and you lap it up like warm chocolate soft serve.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Apparently an appellate judge forced a reluctant Engoron to dismiss anything related to transactions prior to 2014, which Trump says is 80% of the case.

                  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi..._the_case.html
                  This is information that one could have gleaned from reading the ruling from last week:

                  ScreenShot00054.png

                  Obviously, Judge Engoron has decided, having been given leave by the appellate court, that the statute of limitations does not evaporate "80% of the case".

                  Trump is, per usual, telling whoppers. It's not a sign of serious thought to repeat his claims without doing a bit of checking up.

                  -Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • I would be surprised if Trump doesn't end up with a gag order for this case very soon:

                    https://twitter.com/i/status/1708850019623670259
                    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      I would be surprised if Trump doesn't end up with a gag order for this case very soon:

                      https://twitter.com/i/status/1708850019623670259
                      Sure sounds like a threat to me

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post

                        This is information that one could have gleaned from reading the ruling from last week:

                        ScreenShot00054.png

                        Obviously, Judge Engoron has decided, having been given leave by the appellate court, that the statute of limitations does not evaporate "80% of the case".

                        Trump is, per usual, telling whoppers. It's not a sign of serious thought to repeat his claims without doing a bit of checking up.

                        -Sam
                        I think you are reading that wrong. Anything prior to 2014 is past the statute of limitations and can't be included, unless they can somehow tie it to something that happened later.

                        Judge Engoron himself has acknowledged the 2014 SoL.



                        Near the end of the day Monday, Engoron questioned whether lengthy witness testimony about 2011 financial documents was a “waste of time” because of statute of limitations applying to the case expired in 2014.

                        The issue is something to watch going forward, as Trump and his lawyers say they can toss a majority of the case over the statute of limitations.

                        The judge was responding to testimony from former Mazars accountant Donald Bender about the 2011 financial documents, acknowledging that a New York appellate court had ruled the statute of limitations only allowed allegations from 2014 onward to apply in the case.

                        “I trust that you can relate the 2011 documents to something that happened later,” Engoron said to the attorney general’s lawyers. “Or this has all been a waste of time.”

                        The defense agreed with Engoron’s assertion – prompting Trump to give a thumbs up.

                        The judge’s comment marked a small win for Trump, because the judge acknowledged the statute of limitations that had been decided by the appeals court, though the judge also acknowledged the time limitation in his order last week.
                        https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/polit...one/index.html

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          I would be surprised if Trump doesn't end up with a gag order for this case very soon:

                          https://twitter.com/i/status/1708850019623670259
                          Trump's mouth is his own worst enemy. Such an idiot. He is also bad-mouthing the very person (the Judge) who will decide his case, since he doesn't have a jury. Such a moron.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            I think you are reading that wrong. Anything prior to 2014 is past the statute of limitations and can't be included, unless they can somehow tie it to something that happened later.

                            Judge Engoron himself has acknowledged the 2014 SoL.



                            Near the end of the day Monday, Engoron questioned whether lengthy witness testimony about 2011 financial documents was a “waste of time” because of statute of limitations applying to the case expired in 2014.

                            The issue is something to watch going forward, as Trump and his lawyers say they can toss a majority of the case over the statute of limitations.

                            The judge was responding to testimony from former Mazars accountant Donald Bender about the 2011 financial documents, acknowledging that a New York appellate court had ruled the statute of limitations only allowed allegations from 2014 onward to apply in the case.

                            “I trust that you can relate the 2011 documents to something that happened later,” Engoron said to the attorney general’s lawyers. “Or this has all been a waste of time.”

                            The defense agreed with Engoron’s assertion – prompting Trump to give a thumbs up.

                            The judge’s comment marked a small win for Trump, because the judge acknowledged the statute of limitations that had been decided by the appeals court, though the judge also acknowledged the time limitation in his order last week.
                            https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/02/polit...one/index.html
                            My meaning wasn't that Engoron was given leave to decide whether a statute of limitations applies but that his determination regarding the statute of limitations, contra Trump, obviously did not evaporate "80% of the case", as Trump et al. already lost on key claims by summary judgement.

                            -Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post

                              My meaning wasn't that Engoron was given leave to decide whether a statute of limitations applies but that his determination regarding the statute of limitations, contra Trump, obviously did not evaporate "80% of the case", as Trump et al. already lost on key claims by summary judgement.

                              -Sam
                              OK. I don't think anyone knows exactly what percentage of the charges are from before 2014, do they? But Trump is prone to exaggeration.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                OK. I don't think anyone knows exactly what percentage of the charges are from before 2014, do they? But Trump is prone to exaggeration.
                                No, I haven't seen any breakdown or indication as to percentages. But 80% can't be the right figure when the "persistent fraud" standard is applicable: even if monetary damages are somewhat limited by the statute of limitations, Trump's still losing his business certificates in NY and a good chunk of money.

                                -Sam
                                "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                                Comment

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