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World Vision apostasy, or: never, ever, give your money to Christian organizations...

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  • World Vision apostasy, or: never, ever, give your money to Christian organizations...

    ...that do anything but Christian apologetics:

    “since World Vision is a multi-denominational organization that welcomes employees from more than 50 denominations, and since a number of these denominations in recent years have sanctioned same-sex marriage for Christians, the board—in keeping with our practice of deferring to church authority in the lives of our staff, and desiring to treat all of our employees equally—chose to adjust our policy.” That led to the key change Stearns was then to announce: “Thus, the board has modified our Employee Standards of Conduct to allow a Christian in a legal same-sex marriage to be employed at World Vision.”
    Wintry Knight is a good blogger:

    Originally posted by Wintry Knight
    Stearns basically claimed that the Bible is not clear on whether gay marriage is permissible. No theologians were cited, no Bible passages were references. He merely said that disagreement among denominations means that there is no right answer...

    I have a long-standing policy of NEVER, EVER, EVER giving money to Christian organizations who do anything except apologetics. I am willing to give money to groups who do pro-life apologetics and pro-marriage apologetics. I am open to giving money to Christian organizations who put forward good economic policy and good foreign policy, too, like the Heritage Foundation or the Family Research Council. But I think the safest thing to do is to take your money and give it to groups like Reasonable Faith, Ratio Christi, Faith Beyond Belief, Stand to Reason, Please Convince Me, Cross Examined, Reasons to Believe, etc. I just sent $300 to Ratio Christi for an event yesterday. So generosity is not the issue – stewardship is.

    Apologetics groups are the SAFEST groups to give money to, because they are the ones who are guided by truth. World Vision and other “works-based” groups, including some missionary groups are some of the WORST places to put your money if you care about theological accuracy. People don’t get into apologetics in order to feel good or be liked, they go into it to discover truth and defend truth. We are hard-core in this business. So again, if you want to be a good steward of your money, put your money into apologists who are active in research, active on the university campus, and actively engaged for the truth of Christianity.

    I realize I am being controversial here, but trust me on this. There is something different about people who go out and study philosophy, history and science and then get into debates with people. There is something inside them that is resistant to the spirit of the age, which is secularism, postmodernism and moral relativism. A lot of non-apologists think that God is primarily interested in making people good, and making them do good things here on Earth. And that’s what leads to the apostasy that you see in groups like World Vision – this focus on doing good, rather than on having true beliefs first, then doing good second.
    And finally, a good quote from Albert Mohler:

    The distinction between an “operational arm” of the church and a “theological arm” is a fatal misreading of reality.

  • #2
    One of the ways in which World Vision operates is having people sponsor impoverished children. The apparent evangelical response?
    my wife works for WV. In today's all staff meeting Richard Stearns announced that so far 2000 kids [have been] dropped.
    https://twitter.com/rvccryan/status/448639297810227201
    How nice. "This charity stopped explicitly aligning with my interpretation of a few passages, so I'm going to abandon the poor and needy children whom I'd promised to support." It's very Christ-like, a neat parallel to that time Jesus told people that they should neglect an ox if it falls into a ditch on the Sabbath. After all, he clearly emphasized that having the right position on a doctrinal dispute is superior to saving a life. (Or maybe those evangelicals think an ox is more valuable than a human child? That might make sense; Jesus did say that even sparrows are worth more than many humans.)

    I'm glad that the common evangelical responses are so well-rooted in and accurately representative of scripture. They also do a fine job of representing other people's positions:
    Originally posted by Wintry Knight
    World Vision Endorses Same-Sex Marriage, Denies Biblical Definition of Marriage
    Originally posted by Christianity Today
    Stearns took pains to emphasize what World Vision is not communicating by the policy change.

    "It's easy to read a lot more into this decision than is really there," he said. "This is not an endorsement of same-sex marriage. We have decided we are not going to get into that debate. Nor is this a rejection of traditional marriage, which we affirm and support."
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...-marriage.html
    World Vision: This is not an endorsement of same-sex marriage
    Wintry Knight: World Vision endorses same-sex marriage

    World Vision: This is not a rejection of traditional marriage.
    Wintry Knight: World Vision denies (aka rejects) "Biblical" (aka traditional) marriage

    He indeed has an absolutely sterling grasp on truth and accuracy.
    Last edited by fm93; 03-26-2014, 11:18 AM.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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    • #3
      Though I don't agree with the full premise of what WK says (else I couldn't even give money to my own church), he generally is well in tune with apologetics issues as they intersect with current events.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Not in this case.
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by square_peg View Post

          World Vision: This is not an endorsement of same-sex marriage
          Wintry Knight: World Vision endorses same-sex marriage
          Despite WV's protestations to the contrary, it is indeed a tacit endorsement of same-sex marriage.
          World Vision: This is not a rejection of traditional marriage.
          Wintry Knight: World Vision denies (aka rejects) "Biblical" (aka traditional) marriage
          This is a mischaracterization of what WK said. In accepting same-sex marriage as valid, WV is perforce rejecting the Biblical definition of marriage.

          That said, I don't think this would cause me to drop sponsorship of a child (though I'd probably sponsor children through a different organization in the future). I also profoundly disagree with WK's rejection of supporting non-apologetics ministries.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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          • #6
            Originally posted by square_peg View Post
            Not in this case.
            I'm fairly far from him theologically so naturally I'll disagree with many of his conclusions.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Yes, when Paul wrote about stewardship in much of 2 Corinthians and used the Macedonians as an example, there was no qualification that only apologetics ministries could apply. (There were basically two options for giving back then - help the hungry believers, or support the missionaries (apologetics). Note that Paul is emphasizing the non-apologetics option in that particular instance.)
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                One of the ways in which World Vision operates is having people sponsor impoverished children.

                The apparent evangelical response?


                How nice. "This charity stopped explicitly aligning with my interpretation of a few passages, so I'm going to abandon the poor and needy children whom I'd promised to support."
                We promised to support them in a Christian setting, through Christian organizations. If we wanted to feed children disinterestedly there's a million other charities that will do that. If there aren't, and Christians are the ONLY ones feeding children disinterestedly, then we might want to preserve that Christian element in an organization above all else, hm?

                It's very Christ-like, a neat parallel to that time Jesus told people that they should neglect an ox if it falls into a ditch on the Sabbath. After all, he clearly emphasized that having the right position on a doctrinal dispute is superior to saving a life.
                Being a distant parent is not 'saving a life.'

                (Or maybe those evangelicals think an ox is more valuable than a human child? That might make sense; Jesus did say that even sparrows are worth more than many humans.)
                That ox was a person's property, i.e., when you help the ox, you help the owner, who is, in fact a part of your community, and can take over the ownership and care of the ox once you're done saving it. The owner of the ox does not gain a claim on you for the rest of his life, though a sufficiently shameless one might try, to the extent that you don't tell him to go take care of his own ox.

                I'm glad that the common evangelical responses are so well-rooted in and accurately representative of scripture. They also do a fine job of representing other people's positions:

                World Vision: This is not an endorsement of same-sex marriage
                Wintry Knight: World Vision endorses same-sex marriage

                World Vision: This is not a rejection of traditional marriage.
                Wintry Knight: World Vision denies (aka rejects) "Biblical" (aka traditional) marriage

                He indeed has an absolutely sterling grasp on truth and accuracy.
                He does. World Vision was simultaneously taking sides in action and claiming not to take sides in words. Therefore, their words are useless and untrustworthy, and why the hell would you give your money to people whose words are useless and untrustworthy? Do you trust their agents? Have you seen the children they claim to sponsor in person?

                Disinterested altruism is callous altruism, and will produce a callous and dishonest attitude among people who practice it, and its beneficiaries. If you're feeding kids because they're hungry, and not seeing to their spiritual outlook on life, you're do different than your average ghetto mother, and the kids will in fact be more likely to grow up to be the Trayvon Martins of the world.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't agree with WV's stand. Trying to abandon holiness for unity - which of course, won't happen - isn't the way to go.

                  That said, criticising such attempts is a time-honoured way to avoid trying to work out in theory and praxis the unity and holiness of the church.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                    I don't agree with WV's stand. Trying to abandon holiness for unity - which of course, won't happen - isn't the way to go.

                    That said, criticising such attempts is a time-honoured way to avoid trying to work out in theory and praxis the unity and holiness of the church.
                    One does have to be careful who one gives to and be ready to remove them is necessary. I will continue to give to my local Christian Radio network.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                    • #11
                      World Vision has reversed their descision:

                      http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...source=twitter
                      Source: Christianity Today

                      "The last couple of days have been painful," president Richard Stearns told reporters this evening. "We feel pain and a broken heart for the confusion we caused for many friends who saw this policy change as a strong reversal of World Vision's commitment to biblical authority, which it was not intended to be."

                      "Rather than creating more unity [among Christians], we created more division, and that was not the intent," said Stearns. "The board acknowledged that the policy change we made was a mistake, and we believe that you've helped us to see that … and we're asking you [supporters] to forgive us for that mistake."

                      "We listened to our friends, we listened to their counsel. They tried to point out in loving ways that the conduct policy change was not consistent … with the authority of Scripture and how we apply it to our lives," said Stearns. "We did inadequate consultation with our supporters. If I could have a do-over on one thing, I would have done much more consultation with Christian leaders."

                      "We need to have a process to do further and wider consultation with key Christian leaders around the country, and we will be discussing how that can happen," he said.

                      "What we are affirming today is there are certain beliefs that are so core to our Trinitarian faith that we must take a strong stand on those beliefs," said Stearns. "We cannot defer to a small minority of churches and denominations that have taken a different position."

                      "Yes, we will certainly defer on many issues that are not so central to our understanding of the Christian faith," he said. "But on the authority of Scripture in our organization's work [and employee conduct] ... and on marriage as an institution ordained by God between a man and a woman—those are age-old and fundamental Christian beliefs."

                      Stearns expects the board to continue to deal with questions about employment and same-sex relationships. "I think every Christian organization will continue to deal with this sensitive issue," he said. "The board will continue to talk about this issue for many board meetings to come. ... The original decision was overwhelmingly ratified by the board, and the decision to reverse the policy today after a lot of deep reflection, a lot of listening to supporters … was also overwhelmingly supported today."

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                      -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                      Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                      1 Corinthians 16:13

                      "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
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                      • #12
                        Well, that's disappointing.

                        What we are affirming today is there are certain beliefs that are so core to our Trinitarian faith that we must take a strong stand on those beliefs," said Stearns...
                        Oh? I don't see any reference to same-sex marriage in 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul's reciting the gospel. But even if it was, the World Vision representatives weren't even making a theological argument about it. They were simply opening the door to allow more people to serve the poor and needy. Apparently some evangelicals are unwilling to work with or donate to people who aren't harming each other but simply happen to feel romantic love for members of the same sex.
                        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                          Well, that's disappointing.


                          Oh? I don't see any reference to same-sex marriage in 1 Corinthians 15, when Paul's reciting the gospel. But even if it was, the World Vision representatives weren't even making a theological argument about it. They were simply opening the door to allow more people to serve the poor and needy. Apparently some evangelicals are unwilling to work with or donate to people who aren't harming each other but simply happen to feel romantic love for members of the same sex.
                          Jesus turned away sinners. He only associated with his own kind.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                            Jesus turned away sinners. He only associated with his own kind.
                            I'm shocked, shocked, that an atheist would misapply scripture. Jesus ate with sinners; he did not employ them.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                              Well, that's disappointing.
                              It's disappointing that they initially caved to secular pressure.
                              Apparently some evangelicals are unwilling to work with or donate to people who aren't harming each other but simply happen to feel romantic love for members of the same sex.
                              Evangelicals tend to believe that such people are burning with lust for members of the same sex, and that such relationships are indeed harmful to the participants.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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