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Wokeness and the Academic World

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    A sweeping generalisation is only a problem when it is not recognised as such. There was no "all" in that statement, and it identified a tendency, not an action.
    Referring to "the left" without any qualification is a generalisation.



    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I and the public know
    What all schoolchildren learn,
    Those to whom evil is done
    Do evil in return


    I am not familiar with the name "Auden," but there are aphorisms along the same lines.

    "Every time a person is attacked without cause, he gets lessons in how to defend himself and in the need to defend himself."

    "Lie to a child; he learns to lie Steal from a child; he learns to steal. Strike a child; he learns to strike."
    Auden put it more succinctly and forcefully


    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    There was even a rather despicable study conducted that supports the hypothesis: exact details forgotten, but it went something along the lines of
    A class of children were told by a teacher that scientific studies had shown that a certain physical trait (eye colour, I think) showed that the people who had it were inferior intellectually and morally. The children who had that trait were treated to bullying and distrust by their peers, and their grades fell.
    After a time, the teacher told them that the study had been wrong, and that another study had shown that some other trait in fact showed a lack of intellect and moral fibre. It had the same effect on the second group, but the first group largely didn't engage in the bullying.
    The experiment conducted by Jane Elliott with her class of eight year olds was hardly "despicable".

    Following the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr in 1968, Elliott [a primary school teacher in a rural town in Iowa] took it upon herself to teach her all white class of pupils the personal impact and brutality of racism.

    She divided her class into two groups "brown eyes" and "blue eyes".

    Initially the blue-eyed children were the despised group, banned from playing on the school playground equipment and denied second helpings at school lunch. If they wished to have a drink from the water fountain they had to use paper cups. They were also told not to bother to do their homework because even if they answered all the questions correctly they would probably forget to bring the work back to school because.... that was the just the way blue-eyed children were.

    On the second day she reversed her experiment with the brown-eyed children now being on the receiving end of discrimination.

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Who bullied the Left? It must have been the Right!
      The political pendulum swings both ways because both sides bully each other when they have power. It's the cycle of hatred and why we see the political pendulum swing back and forth.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post




        The experiment conducted by Jane Elliott with her class of eight year olds was hardly "despicable".
        That she just simply used a group of eight year olds without their or their parent's consent or knowledge, to conduct her experiment on is most definitely a despicable thing to do.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          Referring to "the left" without any qualification is a generalisation.
          Generalisations have traditionally been considered reasonable. No good complaining about the use of such things, because there are scant few who don't. You are not among the scant few.

          The experiment conducted by Jane Elliott with her class of eight year olds was hardly "despicable".[/quote]

          Such experiments are indeed considered despicable today.
          There is a strong trend toward judging people of the past by today's standards, which I consider deplorable, but that experiment offended even the people of her own time.

          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Generalisations have traditionally been considered reasonable. No good complaining about the use of such things, because there are scant few who don't. You are not among the scant few.

            Such experiments are indeed considered despicable today.
            There is a strong trend toward judging people of the past by today's standards, which I consider deplorable, but that experiment offended even the people of her own time.
            A section from here:

            https://practicalpie.com/blue-eyes-b...-jane-elliott/

            Was The Blue Eyes Brown Eyes Experiment Ethical?

            Many critics that the children were too young to understand the exercise. One caller complained that white children would not be able to handle the exercise and would be seriously damaged by the exercise.

            Researchers later concluded that there was evidence that the students became less prejudiced after the study and that it was inconclusive as to whether or not the potential harm outweighed the benefits of the exercise.

            These initial criticisms didn’t stop Elliott. She continued to conduct the exercise with her third graders. In 1970, a documentary about the exercise was released. Watch it online right now! The documentary has become a popular teaching tool among teachers, business owners, and even employees at correctional facilities.

            That same year, Elliott was invited to the White House Conference on Children and Youth to conduct an exercise on adult educators.

            Lasting Impact of Blue Eyes Brown Eyes Experiment

            Fourteen years later, the students featured in The Eye of the Storm reunited and discussed their experiences with Elliott. Many of them noted that when they hear prejudice and discrimination from others, they “wish they could whip out those collars” and give them the experience they had as third graders. This meeting, along with other clips of the exercise’s impact on education, is featured in a PBS documentary called A Class Divided.

            Even though the response to the Blue Eyes Brown Eyes exercise was initially negative, it made Jane Elliott a leading figure in diversity training. She left teaching in the mid-80s to speak publicly about the experience and the impact of prejudice and racism.



            And a full article here: https://exploringyourmind.com/blue-e...tt-experiment/



            Blue Eyes and Brown Eyes: The Jane Elliott Experiment


            Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes and Brown Eyes experiment was a turning point in social psychology. In this article, we'll explain what happened during the experiment and discuss its consequences.

            Immediately after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., Professor Jane Elliott used the minimal group paradigm to perform an experiment that would teach her students about race discrimination. The minimal group paradigm has shaped an entire methodology in social psychology. Basically, you establish differences between a set of subjects in order to divide them into separate groups. This technique allows researchers to show how many different traits are necessary to create defined groups, and then analyze the subjects’ behavior within their groups.

            In the 60s, the United States was in the midst of a social race crisis. Professor Jane Elliott performed a group experiment with her students that they would never forget. The idea was simple but profound. She wanted to show her students that an arbitrarily established difference could separate them and pit them against each other.

            Jane Elliott’s experiment


            Jane Elliott, a teacher and anti-racism activist, performed a direct experiment with the students in her classroom. She told them that people with brown eyes were better than people with blue eyes. She also made the brown-eyed students put construction paper armbands on the blue-eyed students.

            Eye Color


            With a couple of basic and arbitrary examples, Elliott made the case that brown-eyed people were better. The students were surprised, but they didn’t argue. This way, she successfully created two distinct groups in her classroom:
            • Brown-eyed people. There were more brown-eyed students in the room. They felt superior and had the support of the authority figure (the teacher). The brown-eyed students also exercised a certain level of power over the blue-eyed students when they put the armbands on them.
            • Blue-eyed people. This was the smaller group. Elliott said that blue-eyed people were less intelligent and less clean. Not only were they fewer in numbers, but the authority figure was against them.
            Discrimination


            The consequences of the minimal group became evident very quickly. A difference as simple as eye color, defined and established by the authority figure, created a rift between the students.

            The brown-eyed children began to act aggressive and mean towards the blue-eyed children. The latter felt discriminated against by the other brown-eyed children.

            What Did the Discrimination Look Like?

            Normally, “blue-eyes” isn’t an insult. However, in this classroom, having blue-eyes had become a condition of inferiority. Consequently, the brown-eyed children started using “blue-eyes” as an insult. The brown-eyed children didn’t want to play with the “blue-eyes” during recess. They also harassed them constantly.

            The Results of the Experiment

            The arbitrary division among the students intensified over the course of the experiment, so much so that it actually ended in physical violence. Children often fight, argue, and sometimes hit each other, but this time they were motivated by eye color. The second day, Elliott reversed the groups. She told the students that the brown-eyed children were inferior and repeated the experiment. The results were the same.

            From the Classroom to the Real World

            When you read about this experiment, it’s hard not to question labels. If this arbitrary division that Elliott enforced for a few hours created so many problems in this classroom, what’s happening on a larger scale? Considering all the stereotypes and prejudices that exist, what kind of damage is being done?

            It’s not surprising to anyone that some social groups discriminate against others due to ethnicity, religion, or culture. These differences lead to war and hate. Even family members can turn against each other if some authority suddenly decides that those differences are a problem.
            “I felt like quitting school. I felt mad. That’s what it feels like when you’re discriminated against.”

            -A child participant in the Blue Eyes-Brown Eyes experiment-
            A Question of Upbringing


            Jane Elliott has done a lot of reflection about the consequences of the minimal group experiment. She says that it’s shocking how children who’re normally kind, cooperative, and friendly with each other suddenly become arrogant, discriminatory, and hostile when they belong to a “superior” group.

            The hate and discrimination that we see in adults have their origin in their upbringing. Society made them believe they were better than other people for arbitrary reasons such as skin color or gender.

            Minimal Groups Today


            This paradigm helps understand the current problems related to discrimination. Today, increased migration means more opportunities for people from different backgrounds to interact with each other, which is often a source of conflict.

            The people and cultures already present in a place often feel threatened by new immigrants. Their response is to create dichotomies of inferiority and superiority. As a result of those divisions, you see racial discrimination or even terrorism.

            The Importance of Discrimination-Free Education

            The goal of the minimal group paradigm is to establish subjective differences and create a climate of favoritism. Thus, the dominant group, supported by the authorities, will always have the upper hand. This procedure is sometimes so subtle that no one notices it happening. Some guidelines for avoiding or reducing this effect are:
            • Normalize differences. In educational contexts, normalizing superficial differences between children can mitigate feelings of superiority.
            • Integration activities. It’s important to mix individuals with different traits, beliefs, and cultures as much as possible and get them working together on a common goal.
            • The role of the teacher. In an authoritarian environment, the group closest to the authority figure (in this case, the teacher) feels superior and justified. Consequently, teachers must be mediators, not instigators.

            In conclusion, Jane Elliott’s experiment demonstrates the fragility of coexistence and cooperation. It also shows how arbitrary and subjective things can turn friends, family members, and citizens against each other.



            From the section of that first citation it would appear that the experiment had a long-lasting positive impact on some of her pupils.

            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              A section from here:

              https://practicalpie.com/blue-eyes-b...-jane-elliott/

              Was The Blue Eyes Brown Eyes Experiment Ethical?

              Many critics that the children were too young to understand the exercise. One caller complained that white children would not be able to handle the exercise and would be seriously damaged by the exercise.

              Researchers later concluded that there was evidence that the students became less prejudiced after the study and that it was inconclusive as to whether or not the potential harm outweighed the benefits of the exercise.

              These initial criticisms didn’t stop Elliott. She continued to conduct the exercise with her third graders. In 1970, a documentary about the exercise was released. Watch it online right now! The documentary has become a popular teaching tool among teachers, business owners, and even employees at correctional facilities.

              That same year, Elliott was invited to the White House Conference on Children and Youth to conduct an exercise on adult educators.

              Lasting Impact of Blue Eyes Brown Eyes Experiment

              Fourteen years later, the students featured in The Eye of the Storm reunited and discussed their experiences with Elliott. Many of them noted that when they hear prejudice and discrimination from others, they “wish they could whip out those collars” and give them the experience they had as third graders. This meeting, along with other clips of the exercise’s impact on education, is featured in a PBS documentary called A Class Divided.

              Even though the response to the Blue Eyes Brown Eyes exercise was initially negative, it made Jane Elliott a leading figure in diversity training. She left teaching in the mid-80s to speak publicly about the experience and the impact of prejudice and racism.



              And a full article here: https://exploringyourmind.com/blue-e...tt-experiment/



              Blue Eyes and Brown Eyes: The Jane Elliott Experiment


              Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes and Brown Eyes experiment was a turning point in social psychology. In this article, we'll explain what happened during the experiment and discuss its consequences.

              Immediately after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr., Professor Jane Elliott used the minimal group paradigm to perform an experiment that would teach her students about race discrimination. The minimal group paradigm has shaped an entire methodology in social psychology. Basically, you establish differences between a set of subjects in order to divide them into separate groups. This technique allows researchers to show how many different traits are necessary to create defined groups, and then analyze the subjects’ behavior within their groups.

              In the 60s, the United States was in the midst of a social race crisis. Professor Jane Elliott performed a group experiment with her students that they would never forget. The idea was simple but profound. She wanted to show her students that an arbitrarily established difference could separate them and pit them against each other.

              Jane Elliott’s experiment


              Jane Elliott, a teacher and anti-racism activist, performed a direct experiment with the students in her classroom. She told them that people with brown eyes were better than people with blue eyes. She also made the brown-eyed students put construction paper armbands on the blue-eyed students.

              Eye Color


              With a couple of basic and arbitrary examples, Elliott made the case that brown-eyed people were better. The students were surprised, but they didn’t argue. This way, she successfully created two distinct groups in her classroom:
              • Brown-eyed people. There were more brown-eyed students in the room. They felt superior and had the support of the authority figure (the teacher). The brown-eyed students also exercised a certain level of power over the blue-eyed students when they put the armbands on them.
              • Blue-eyed people. This was the smaller group. Elliott said that blue-eyed people were less intelligent and less clean. Not only were they fewer in numbers, but the authority figure was against them.
              Discrimination


              The consequences of the minimal group became evident very quickly. A difference as simple as eye color, defined and established by the authority figure, created a rift between the students.

              The brown-eyed children began to act aggressive and mean towards the blue-eyed children. The latter felt discriminated against by the other brown-eyed children.

              What Did the Discrimination Look Like?

              Normally, “blue-eyes” isn’t an insult. However, in this classroom, having blue-eyes had become a condition of inferiority. Consequently, the brown-eyed children started using “blue-eyes” as an insult. The brown-eyed children didn’t want to play with the “blue-eyes” during recess. They also harassed them constantly.

              The Results of the Experiment

              The arbitrary division among the students intensified over the course of the experiment, so much so that it actually ended in physical violence. Children often fight, argue, and sometimes hit each other, but this time they were motivated by eye color. The second day, Elliott reversed the groups. She told the students that the brown-eyed children were inferior and repeated the experiment. The results were the same.

              From the Classroom to the Real World

              When you read about this experiment, it’s hard not to question labels. If this arbitrary division that Elliott enforced for a few hours created so many problems in this classroom, what’s happening on a larger scale? Considering all the stereotypes and prejudices that exist, what kind of damage is being done?

              It’s not surprising to anyone that some social groups discriminate against others due to ethnicity, religion, or culture. These differences lead to war and hate. Even family members can turn against each other if some authority suddenly decides that those differences are a problem.
              “I felt like quitting school. I felt mad. That’s what it feels like when you’re discriminated against.”

              -A child participant in the Blue Eyes-Brown Eyes experiment-

              A Question of Upbringing


              Jane Elliott has done a lot of reflection about the consequences of the minimal group experiment. She says that it’s shocking how children who’re normally kind, cooperative, and friendly with each other suddenly become arrogant, discriminatory, and hostile when they belong to a “superior” group.

              The hate and discrimination that we see in adults have their origin in their upbringing. Society made them believe they were better than other people for arbitrary reasons such as skin color or gender.

              Minimal Groups Today


              This paradigm helps understand the current problems related to discrimination. Today, increased migration means more opportunities for people from different backgrounds to interact with each other, which is often a source of conflict.

              The people and cultures already present in a place often feel threatened by new immigrants. Their response is to create dichotomies of inferiority and superiority. As a result of those divisions, you see racial discrimination or even terrorism.

              The Importance of Discrimination-Free Education

              The goal of the minimal group paradigm is to establish subjective differences and create a climate of favoritism. Thus, the dominant group, supported by the authorities, will always have the upper hand. This procedure is sometimes so subtle that no one notices it happening. Some guidelines for avoiding or reducing this effect are:
              • Normalize differences. In educational contexts, normalizing superficial differences between children can mitigate feelings of superiority.
              • Integration activities. It’s important to mix individuals with different traits, beliefs, and cultures as much as possible and get them working together on a common goal.
              • The role of the teacher. In an authoritarian environment, the group closest to the authority figure (in this case, the teacher) feels superior and justified. Consequently, teachers must be mediators, not instigators.

              In conclusion, Jane Elliott’s experiment demonstrates the fragility of coexistence and cooperation. It also shows how arbitrary and subjective things can turn friends, family members, and citizens against each other.



              From the section of that first citation it would appear that the experiment had a long-lasting positive impact on some of her pupils.
              It would seem that I stand corrected.The impact on the children concerned, by their own accounts, is kind of persuasive.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                It would seem that I stand corrected.
                Of course many experiments conducted in the past would now be considered highly unethical; e.g. , Watson and Rayner's 1920Little Albert experiment. Likewise Milgram's famous 1965 Obedience Experiment, as well as Zimbardo's 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment [aka Zimbardo's Prison Experiment].

                However, those two latter experiments did highlight important behavioural issues with regard to positions of authority and authority figures.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Of course many experiments conducted in the past would now be considered highly unethical; e.g. , Watson and Rayner's 1920Little Albert experiment. Likewise Milgram's famous 1965 Obedience Experiment, as well as Zimbardo's 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment [aka Zimbardo's Prison Experiment].

                  However, those two latter experiments did highlight important behavioural issues with regard to positions of authority and authority figures.
                  I understand that Nazi experiments where they froze prisoners to death offered valuable information regarding hypothermia, and I'm sure Josef Mengele's experiments on twins also provided useful information as well.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I understand that Nazi experiments where they froze prisoners to death offered valuable information regarding hypothermia, and I'm sure Josef Mengele's experiments on twins also provided useful information as well.
                    I understand the US government also sanctioned some highly unethical experiments, primarily utilising prisoners, the physically and/or mentally disabled, and black Americans.

                    Do you want to [idiomatically] go down that path?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      I understand the US government also sanctioned some highly unethical experiments, primarily utilising prisoners, the physically and/or mentally disabled, and black Americans.

                      Do you want to [idiomatically] go down that path?
                      The Tuskegee experiment (or more correctly, the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male), conducted by our Public Heath Service and the CDC is a prime example of this sort of thing and stands as a clear warning about the need for proper ethical practices.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        The Tuskegee experiment (or more correctly, the Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male), conducted by our Public Heath Service and the CDC is a prime example of this sort of thing and stands as a clear warning about the need for proper ethical practices.
                        There were more experiments than that one.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          There were more experiments than that one.
                          Indeed. But that's the one that burned into the public consciousness and was used by many blacks to justify resisting getting vaccinated because the government told them to.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Some rather concerning statistics cited re the state of play in the academic world: 25% self censor in academic publications, 33% during lectures or interviews. At the height of the McCarthy purges, 9% of social scientists self censored.
                            University lecturers are more afraid of being cancelled now than at the height of the McCarthy era. Of Liberal faculty members, "40% are afraid of losing their jobs or reputations due to their speech."



                            Being how oxmixmudd (and his ilk) holds academia in such high esteem, yet continuously levels indictments against Christians and how "unsympathetic" they are of woke culture, I'd be interested in his opinions about this, assuming he doesn't just dismiss it like JimL did, which is probably what he would do if he didn't just continue to ignore it. The fact he's ignored it up to now is telling.
                            Last edited by seanD; 05-30-2023, 02:19 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post

                              Being how oxmixmudd (and his ilk) holds academia in such high esteem, yet continuously levels indictments against Christians and how "unsympathetic" they are of woke culture, I'd be interested in his opinions about this, assuming he doesn't just dismiss it like JimL did, which is probably what he would do if he didn't just continue to ignore it. The fact he's ignored it up to now is telling.
                              Woke is the current cause du jour. It will be replaced in due course by the next group of heretic hunters wearing a different badge.
                              Last edited by tabibito; 05-30-2023, 02:30 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Some rather concerning statistics cited re the state of play in the academic world: 25% self censor in academic publications, 33% during lectures or interviews. At the height of the McCarthy purges, 9% of social scientists self censored.
                                University lecturers are more afraid of being cancelled now than at the height of the McCarthy era. Of Liberal faculty members, "40% are afraid of losing their jobs or reputations due to their speech."



                                That's highly disturbing, I wonder if it is all just fear of wokeness or if there are other factors. I also wonder how much the immediateness and interconnectedness caused by social media and the internet influence (i.e. would the McCarthy era numbers be higher if it was this easy to "cancel" someone almost instantly?)

                                Comment

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