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Church - State Confrontation

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  • Church - State Confrontation

    Texas bills:



    “There is absolutely no separation of God and government, and that’s what these bills are about. That has been confused; it’s not real,” said Texas state Sen. Mayes Middleton (R), who co-sponsored or authored three of the religion bills. “When prayer was taken out of schools, things went downhill — discipline, mental health. It’s something I heard a lot on porches when I was campaigning. It’s something I’ve thought about for a long time.”



    Beware of contamination:



    Jefferson reflects other thinkers, including Roger Williams, a Baptist Dissenter and founder of Providence, Rhode Island. He wrote:
    When they [the Church] have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, etc., and made His Garden a wilderness as it is this day. And that therefore if He will ever please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and all that be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the wilderness of the World.[2]




    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Texas bills:



    “There is absolutely no separation of God and government, and that’s what these bills are about. That has been confused; it’s not real,” said Texas state Sen. Mayes Middleton (R), who co-sponsored or authored three of the religion bills. “When prayer was taken out of schools, things went downhill — discipline, mental health. It’s something I heard a lot on porches when I was campaigning. It’s something I’ve thought about for a long time.”



    Beware of contamination:



    Jefferson reflects other thinkers, including Roger Williams, a Baptist Dissenter and founder of Providence, Rhode Island. He wrote:
    When they [the Church] have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, etc., and made His Garden a wilderness as it is this day. And that therefore if He will ever please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and all that be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the wilderness of the World.[2]



    What is your point? I grew up in public schools that had prayer and scripture reading in the morning. How did that hurt anyone?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      What is your point? I grew up in public schools that had prayer and scripture reading in the morning. How did that hurt anyone?
      Are you ok with morning calls to prayer and reading from the Quran? Would you want your kids going to schools that did that?

      What if little Timmy doesn't want to participate in the prayer? What if he objects to being forced to sit through the scripture reading?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

        Are you ok with morning calls to prayer and reading from the Quran? Would you want your kids going to schools that did that?
        I really wouldn't mind a generic reference to God. And back in my day the vast majority of kids came from Christian or Catholic homes. And the fact that Christianity was key to the founding and formation of this nation, in a way no other religion was:

        https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religio...faith%20freely.


        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post

          I really wouldn't mind a generic reference to God. And back in my day the vast majority of kids came from Christian or Catholic homes. And the fact that Christianity was key to the founding and formation of this nation, in a way no other religion was:
          Might not agree with a lot of what they do, but Catholics are definitely Christian.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

            Are you ok with morning calls to prayer and reading from the Quran? Would you want your kids going to schools that did that?

            What if little Timmy doesn't want to participate in the prayer? What if he objects to being forced to sit through the scripture reading?
            It's worth pointing out that when our Founding Fathers spoke of religion, they were referring to Christianity specifically. Keep that in mind whenever you consider the concept of freedom of religion.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Might not agree with a lot of what they do, but Catholics are definitely Christian.
              Yes, I did not mean to suggest that they weren't...
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                It's worth pointing out that when our Founding Fathers spoke of religion, they were referring to Christianity specifically. Keep that in mind whenever you consider the concept of freedom of religion.


                Source: https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

                In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

                © Copyright Original Source



                Source: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Tsfng-Yj1yoJ:[url

                https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/11/how-thomas-jefferson-and-other-founding-fathers-defended-muslim-rights/&cd=26&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us][/url]

                During the bill's debate, some legislators wanted to insert the term "Jesus Christ," which was rejected. Writing in 1821, Jefferson reflected that "singular proposition proved that [the bill's] protection of opinion was meant to be universal."

                He continued:

                Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination."



                Jefferson's opinions on religious liberty were heavily influenced by John Locke, as noted by James H. Hutson, writing in 2002 as chief of the Library of Congress's Manuscript Division:
                In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."



                James Madison, whose views on religious liberty aligned with Jefferson's, helped usher the Virginia bill to final passage. In a document arguing against religious taxes that received thousands of signatures, Madison referenced foreign religious persecution — specifically the Inquisition.

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                He also argued that separation of church and state would actually promote Christianity, writing that an open society would be welcoming to those "remaining under the dominion of false Religions." Establishing an official church, he wrote, "discourages those who are strangers to the light of revelation."

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  I really wouldn't mind a generic reference to God. And back in my day the vast majority of kids came from Christian or Catholic homes. And the fact that Christianity was key to the founding and formation of this nation, in a way no other religion was:

                  https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religio...faith%20freely.

                  So, if I wanted to come in as an Atheist and read from Richard Dawson's "The God Delusion", that would be ok as well?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Source: https://www.wnd.com/2005/10/32839/



                    I was prompted to write and comment after reading the story on the New Jersey football coach that resigned because he was prohibited from leading his team in pre-game prayers.

                    Let me start by saying I am an evangelical Christian and have pretty hard-core beliefs about the rights of individuals, particularly students, to express their faith, to include religious themes in their school work, to perform Christian-themed music and dramas during school talent events, etc. If a school administrator had ever tried to stop one of my kids from carrying a Bible, participating in voluntary prayer, or openly discussing their faith with another student, I would have sued him back in to the Stone Age.

                    You might be surprised then to learn that I am adamantly opposed to teachers and other school officials leading students in prayer or the conduct of prayer rituals, even by students, at officially sanctioned events. Why would I take a position that is seemingly so at odds with my core beliefs?

                    Throughout the vast majority of the United States, most religious practices and beliefs are rooted in a traditional Judeo-Christian belief system. As such, prayers conducted before a football game or at a graduation ceremony, even if so bland and non-proselytizing as to be meaningless, are generally offered in the context of the traditional Jehovah God of the Old and New Testament. However, that is not the case in all corners of our nation.

                    I had the privilege of serving our nation's Air Force while assigned to Hickam Air Force Base on the beautiful island of Oahu in the beautiful state of Hawaii. Because of the arrangement of military housing in that location, my family and I actually lived not at Hickam near the Honolulu metropolitan area, but at Wheeler Air Force Base in the central part of the island just out side of the small pineapple-farming town of Wahiawa. In Wahiawa we found a small Baptist church that met our family's needs. However, Christians and others from various Judeo-Christian traditions were in the very distinct minority in this little village that was populated predominantly by people of Japanese and Chinese ancestry. Rather than a church on every corner, as is common in the continental 48 states, Wahiawa had a Shinto or Buddhist shrine on every corner.

                    Because we worked in the youth department of our church and taught teenage Sunday School classes, we were anxious to be involved in the lives of the students we worked with. So we were quite excited to be able to attend our first football game at Wahiawa High School. Upon our arrival at the stadium it seemed like so many other high school athletic events we had been to in many other places. The teams were warming up, the band was gathering, the ROTC was preparing to raise the colors – a pretty typical fall ritual.

                    Coming from a fairly traditional Southern upbringing, I was not at all initially surprised when a voice came over the PA and asked everyone to rise for the invocation. I had been through this same ritual at many other high-school events and thought nothing of it, so to our feet my wife and I stood, bowed our heads, and prepared to partake of the prayer. But to our extreme dismay, the clergyman who took the microphone and began to pray was not a Protestant minister or a Catholic priest, but a Buddhist priest who proceeded to offer up prayers and intonations to god-head figures that our tradition held to be pagan.

                    We were frozen in shock and incredulity! What to do? To continue to stand and observe this prayer would represent a betrayal of our own faith and imply the honoring of a pagan deity that was anathema to our beliefs. To sit would be an act of extreme rudeness and disrespect in the eyes of our Japanese hosts and neighbors, who value above all other things deference and respect in their social interactions. I am sorry to say that in the confusion of the moment we chose the easier path and elected to continue to stand in silence so as not to create a scene or ill will among those who were seated nearby.

                    As I thought through the incident over the next few days I supposed that the duty of offering the pre-game prayer rotated through the local clergy and we just happened to arrive on the night that the responsibility fell to the Buddhist priest. However, after inquiring I learned that due to the predominance of Buddhist and Shinto adherents in this town, it was the normal practice to have a member of one these faiths offer the pre-game prayer, and Christian clergy were never included. Needless to say that was our first and last football game. Although many of the students we worked with continued to invite us to the games, we were forced to decline. We knew that if we were to attend again we would be forced to abstain from the pre-game activity. And not wanting to offend our Asiatic neighbors and colleagues, we simply refrained from attending.

                    The point is this. I am a professional, educated and responsible man who is strong in his faith and is quite comfortable debating the social and political issues of the day. Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs. I felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land.

                    We often advocate the practice of Judeo-Christian rituals in America's public schools by hiding behind the excuse that they are voluntary and any student who doesn't wish to participate can simply remained seated and silent. Oh that this were true. But if I, as a mature adult, would be so confounded and uncomfortable when faced with the decision of observing and standing on my own religious principals or run the risk of offending the majority crowd, I can only imagine what thoughts and confusion must run through the head of the typical child or teenager, for whom peer acceptance is one of the highest ideals.

                    I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you're ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them. I, for one, slept better at night knowing that because Judeo-Christian prayers were not being offered at my children's schools, I didn't have to worry about them being confronted with Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Satanic or any other prayer ritual I might find offensive.

                    Gary Christenot

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                      So, if I wanted to come in as an Atheist and read from Richard Dawson's "The God Delusion", that would be ok as well?
                      No, because, like I said neither atheism nor other religions had the key role in the founding of this nation.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        No, because, like I said neither atheism nor other religions had the key role in the founding of this nation.
                        So, you would say...establish Christianity as the only religion allowed in school?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post


                          James Madison, whose views on religious liberty aligned with Jefferson's, helped usher the Virginia bill to final passage. In a document arguing against religious taxes that received thousands of signatures, Madison referenced foreign religious persecution — specifically the Inquisition.
                          Yet other states, (like mine), and the Founders who lived in them did support religious taxes - a practice that lasted into the 1830s. And BTW Washington did support the religious tax in Virginia, even though it did not pass.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                            So, you would say...establish Christianity as the only religion allowed in school?
                            Sound good to me, and it has historical precedence...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              Yet other states, (like mine), and the Founders who lived in them did support religious taxes - a practice that lasted into the 1830s. And BTW Washington did support the religious tax in Virginia, even though it did not pass.
                              That's fine. You misunderstood the point of that post. MM erroneously claimed that the FF were only talking about christianity when they talked about religious freedom. I was showing evidence that such a thought was not universal, and Jefferson was pointedly including other religions beyond Christianity. So, the tax situation isn't really all that relevant to the question.

                              Comment

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