Church - State Confrontation

[CivilDiscourse]

Sound good to me, and it has historical precedence...

Maybe congress could pass a law doing that.

[seer]

Maybe congress could pass a law doing that.

I think it would be up to the states, like it was in the past...

[CivilDiscourse]

I think it would be up to the states, like it was in the past...

Such a shame that the 1A has been incorporated to the states. I know, i know...constitutional rights can be-reinterpreted by the party in power. You can treat the 1A just like democrats treat the 2A, as not really a right.

I'm assuming you will leave the 2A up to the states as well?

[seer]

That's fine. You misunderstood the point of that post. MM erroneously claimed that the FF were only talking about christianity when they talked about religious freedom. I was showing evidence that such a thought was not universal, and Jefferson was pointedly including other religions beyond Christianity. So, the tax situation isn't really all that relevant to the question.

MM said nothing about religious freedom, but when the founders referred to God, it was most likely the Christian God. For instance:

Thanksgiving Proclamation 1777 By the Continental Congress The First National Thanksgiving Proclamation

IN CONGRESS November 1, 1777 FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for Benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of: And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy, not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence; but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defense and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased, in so great a Measure, to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops, and to crown our Arms with most signal success: It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive Powers of these UNITED STATES to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for SOLEMN THANKSGIVING and PRAISE: That at one Time and with one Voice, the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that, together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favor; and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD through the Merits of JESUS CHRIST, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole: To inspire our Commanders, both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States, the greatest of all human Blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE: That it may please him, to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People, and the Labor of the Husbandman, that our Land may yield its Increase: To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand; and to prosper the Means of Religion, for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom, which consisteth "in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost."

[CivilDiscourse]

MM said nothing about religious freedom, but when the founders referred to God, it was most likely the Christian God. For instance:

Specifically he said when they talked about "Religion" they meant christianity:

It's worth pointing out that when our Founding Fathers spoke of religion, they were referring to Christianity specifically. Keep that in mind whenever you consider the concept of freedom of religion.

So, when talking about "Freedom of religion" you would need to replace it with "Freedom of Christianity."

Again though, already shown that he was wrong.

[tabibito]

That's fine. You misunderstood the point of that post. MM erroneously claimed that the FF were only talking about christianity when they talked about religious freedom. I was showing evidence that such a thought was not universal, and Jefferson was pointedly including other religions beyond Christianity. So, the tax situation isn't really all that relevant to the question.

At the time the USA constitution was written, religion and (Christian) denomination were interchangable terms, with the rider that for largely political considerations, Musselmen (now Muslims) and Jews were considered to be alternative religions, along with Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran etc. What are now termed (alternative) religions were then considered to be alternative faiths. Such faiths as Shinto, Buddhism, Hindu etc. were not deemed to be religions.

ETA:
And yes, God was and is considered a term for the Christian God, or at least the god of the Bible. No article, capital G god makes the word a proper noun, not a generic noun.

[seer]

Such a shame that the 1A has been incorporated to the states. I know, i know...constitutional rights can be-reinterpreted by the party in power. You can treat the 1A just like democrats treat the 2A, as not really a right.

I'm assuming you will leave the 2A up to the states as well?

False, a school district deciding on having a morning prayer is not Congress making a law...

[CivilDiscourse]

False, a school district deciding on having a morning prayer is not Congress making a law...

A school that kicks out students over conservative speech wouldn't be congress passing a law either. I'm certain you are ok with that. https://www.foxnews.com/media/middle...ly-two-genders

Neither is a state passing gun restrictions. So, I'm sure you are OK with that, right?

Or, do you pick and choose which incorporated rights you agree with and which ones you disagree with?

[seer]

Specifically he said when they talked about "Religion" they meant Christianity..

And he is generally right. Go back to my quote from the Continental Congress. That congress was populated by the very Founders we are speaking of, and that was a decidedly Christian document.

[Sparko]

I am fine for keeping forced religion out of schools, but I think that voluntary prayer should be allowed. If students and teachers want to pray on their own time, I am fine with that. Even islam and other religions.

For example, I don't think there should be a teacher led prayer time in a classroom, but I think that anyone should be free to pray say during lunch time or on recess, or at football games.

[Mountain Man]

Source: https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html

In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

© Copyright Original Source

Source: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Tsfng-Yj1yoJ:[url

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/11/how-thomas-jefferson-and-other-founding-fathers-defended-muslim-rights/&cd=26&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us][/url]

During the bill's debate, some legislators wanted to insert the term "Jesus Christ," which was rejected. Writing in 1821, Jefferson reflected that "singular proposition proved that [the bill's] protection of opinion was meant to be universal."

He continued:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan [Muslim], the Hindoo [Hindu], and Infidel of every denomination."

Jefferson's opinions on religious liberty were heavily influenced by John Locke, as noted by James H. Hutson, writing in 2002 as chief of the Library of Congress's Manuscript Division:

In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion."

James Madison, whose views on religious liberty aligned with Jefferson's, helped usher the Virginia bill to final passage. In a document arguing against religious taxes that received thousands of signatures, Madison referenced foreign religious persecution — specifically the Inquisition.

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He also argued that separation of church and state would actually promote Christianity, writing that an open society would be welcoming to those "remaining under the dominion of false Religions." Establishing an official church, he wrote, "discourages those who are strangers to the light of revelation."

© Copyright Original Source

Anything from The Washington Post should be taken with a grain of salt. If you take time to read the writings of the Founding Fathers and take into account some of the earliest traditions established by the Government, it is abundantly clear that they viewed "religion" and "Christianity" as synonymous terms.

So did America have a Christian Founding? History is complicated, and we should always be suspicious of simple answers to difficult questions. As we have seen, there is precious little evidence that the Founders were deists, wanted religion excluded from the public square, or desired the strict separation of church and state. On the other hand, they identified themselves as Christians, were influenced in important ways by Christian ideas, and generally thought it appropriate for civic authorities to encourage Christianity.

What do these facts mean for Americans who embrace non-Christian faiths or no faith at all? Although the Founders were profoundly influenced by Christianity, they did not design a constitutional order only for fellow believers. They explicitly prohibited religious tests for federal offices, and they were committed to the proposition that all men and women should be free to worship God (or not) as their consciences dictate.

As evidenced by George Washington’s 1790 letter to a “Hebrew Congregation” in Newport, Rhode Island, the new nation was to be open to a wide array of individuals who were willing to assume the responsibilities of citizenship...

Yet it does not follow from this openness that Americans should simply forget about their country’s Christian roots. Anyone interested in an accurate account of the nation’s past cannot afford to ignore the important influence of faith on many Americans, from the Puritans to the present day.

Christian ideas underlie some key tenets of America’s constitutional order. For instance, the Founders believed that humans are created in the image of God, which led them to design institutions and laws meant to protect and promote human dignity. Because they were convinced that humans are sinful, they attempted to avoid the concentration of power by framing a national government with carefully enumerated powers. As well, the Founders were committed to liberty, but they never imagined that provisions of the Bill of Rights would be used to protect licentiousness. And they clearly thought moral considerations should inform legislation.

America has drifted from these first principles. We would do well to reconsider the wisdom of these changes.

The Founders believed it permissible for the national and state governments to encourage Christianity, but this may no longer be prudential in our increasingly pluralistic country. Yet the Constitution does not mandate a secular polity, and we should be wary of jurists, politicians, and academics who would strip religion from the public square. We should certainly reject arguments that America’s Founders intended the First Amendment to prohibit neutral programs that support faith-based social service agencies, religious schools, and the like.

Finally, we ignore at our peril the Founders’ insight that democracy requires a moral people and that faith is an important, if not indispensable, support for morality. Such faith may well flourish best without government support, but it should not have to flourish in the face of government hostility.

https://www.heritage.org/political-p...stian-founding

[rogue06]

I am fine for keeping forced religion out of schools, but I think that voluntary prayer should be allowed. If students and teachers want to pray on their own time, I am fine with that. Even islam and other religions.

For example, I don't think there should be a teacher led prayer time in a classroom, but I think that anyone should be free to pray say during lunch time or on recess, or at football games.

Given that schools are now setting aside rooms for Muslims to pray in...

[Gondwanaland]

False, a school district deciding on having a morning prayer is not Congress making a law...

Unfortunately for you, other amendments as well as cases, extend that down further and a school district would indeed apply here in not being allowed to do such.

[seer]

A school that kicks out students over conservative speech wouldn't be congress passing a law either. I'm certain you are ok with that. https://www.foxnews.com/media/middle...ly-two-genders

Neither is a state passing gun restrictions. So, I'm sure you are OK with that, right?

But gun rights are Constitutional, national, not so with local prayer. And it never was a national thing until recently. You can not show one Founder who would have had a problem with local school prayer... And again - it is NOT Congress making a law...

[seer]

Unfortunately for you, other amendments as well as cases, extend that down further and a school district would indeed apply here in not being allowed to do such.

Really which Amendment does that?