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  • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

    Jesus has no similarities to Horus.

    Edit: I'm not going to continue the derail until JimL can provide any thing remotely similar to hostile depictions of Jesus, something like a government funded Muhammed in urine.
    Not only Horus, but the things attributed to the biblical/historical Jesus, the Virginia birth, the miracles, the healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, the crucifixion and resurrection of the diety, the promise of eternal life etc, etc are all elements of the more ancient myths.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post

      Why, did he change your mind about Jesus, or did he confirm your bias. Besides, I'm not claiming that there was no historical Jesus, I'm just suggesting that the gospels, written decades later, are a combination of history and myth. In the Gospels, Jesus simply became the historical version of Horus.
      As a fellow atheist, I regret to tell you you've fallen for some memes and urban legends that have been going around the internet for quite some time that have little to no truth to them. There is essentially zero similarity between Jesus and Horus. Sadly some atheists seem to have - much like a Christian - taken something they saw claimed (IIRC this nonsense originated from Zeitgeist and was repeated without evidence by Bill Maher in Religulous) and ran with it as if it were the gospel truth. Much the same for some of the other supposed 'similarities' with other mythological deities.
      Last edited by Gondwanaland; 05-28-2023, 05:30 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


        It is hardly a "brief history" but it touches on certain points!
        For sure...........

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Paul is in keeping with certain Old Testament moral principles, ones that I'm sure Christ would and did agree with, as He said He came to fulfill that law.
          'You feel sure'...... is that your way of putting chosen words in the mouth of Jesus?

          That doesn't follow - when Christ said that adultery was a sin, was Christ being a bigot or hateful? If I say that stealing is a moral wrong, is that being hateful against thieves?
          Stop you there! Are you trying to link gay lifestyles to adultery or theft?
          The only reason that homosexuality was forbidden back then was because the Israelites needed to grow fast, healthy, strong and successful, and so gays could not achieve that together, nor could they have 'side relationships'.

          Are you a sinner? Well.... are you? Don't tell me 'everyone is' etc.... I'm asking you if you are a sinner.
          I suggest that you remember what Jesus said:-

          John ]{8:7} So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. {8:8} And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. {8:9} And they which heard [it,] being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. {8:10} When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

          Same sex couples are sexually free......... it's coming..... best to leave it be.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            "Begging the question" is a form of circular reasoning where the premises of an argument assume the truth of the conclusion.
            Asking a question is just that.... asking a question. Answer if you can, if you will.

            Mark and John are both describing the same person but simply choose to highlight different aspects of his character. As I've said before, one should not read the Bible with an implied "or" but an "and". In other words, to get a complete picture of who Jesus was, you would not read Mark or John, but Mark and John (and Matthew, and Luke, and the rest of the New Testament).
            Go on! Tell me again how a 'charismatic fervent devout holy man was elevated to the divine figure of Christ'! ( about Geza Vermes)

            You argue as if Jesus was concerned about the political situation of his day, but he wasn't. In fact, he didn't have much concern for how earthly governments conducted themselves. The closest he ever got to making a political statement was when he was asked if taxes should be paid, and he replied, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God." Jesus' primary message was to repent of one's sins.
            Huh? No concern for social injustices and corruption? (that's political.)
            I'll let a gospel answer for me:-
            Mark ]{11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

            not political? and the Baptist....... not political?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              You have not presented a compelling argument that would lead anybody to reasonably conclude that Mark and John are not highlighting different aspects of the same person.
              You wrote the above to Hypatia_Alexandria Oh yes she has!

              Even the titles given to Jesus in the gospels escalate, from man to Lord. And his true enemies change from the priesthood...to the Jews! A central cause of anti-Semitism for 2000 years.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by eider View Post
                'You feel sure'...... is that your way of putting chosen words in the mouth of Jesus?
                No, He came to fulfill the law, in other words to keep it. There is no way He would have been good with sexual immorality. Besides We believe that Paul's writings were inspired.

                Matt 5:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications,thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

                porneia
                1. illicit sexual intercourse
                  1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
                  2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
                  3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11-12
                2. metaph. the worship of idols
                  1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols





                Stop you there! Are you trying to link gay lifestyles to adultery or theft?
                The only reason that homosexuality was forbidden back then was because the Israelites needed to grow fast, healthy, strong and successful, and so gays could not achieve that together, nor could they have 'side relationships'.
                You are making stuff up. Why was that the ONLY reason? If it was a reason at all? But that was not the point - is calling theft or adultery immoral or sin hateful, yes or no?

                Are you a sinner? Well.... are you? Don't tell me 'everyone is' etc.... I'm asking you if you are a sinner.
                I suggest that you remember what Jesus said:-

                John ]{8:7} So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. {8:8} And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. {8:9} And they which heard [it,] being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. {8:10} When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

                Same sex couples are sexually free......... it's coming..... best to leave it be.
                Of course I'm a sinner, and? And no we will not leave it along...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                  There is essentially zero similarity between Jesus and Horus.
                  That is a sweeping generalisation. When considering comparative religion there are parallels.

                  That is not to suggest that Christianity copied from Egyptian religions anymore than Judaism copied from Greece and Persia but those two latter certainly influenced Judaism. The terminology for Horus as Lord of Heaven, the mythology that he was conceived by another god, and his association with the sun [as later was the Christ Jesus] are analogous.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    That is a sweeping generalisation. When considering comparative religion there are parallels.
                    nor really. There is indeed essentially no similarity. And certainly not the close similarity JimL is claiming. As a historian you should know that but we both know you're a fraud.

                    That is not to suggest that Christianity copied from Egyptian religions anymore than Judaism copied from Greece and Persia but those two latter certainly influenced Judaism. The terminology for Horus as Lord of Heaven,
                    Horus is not "Lord of Heaven". Indeed the concept of heaven is not extant in Egyptian mythology. He's a sky deity.

                    Sorry, but zeitgeist lied to you.

                    the mythology that he was conceived by another god,
                    A deity being a father to another deity is not a similarity, its basic human projection. Im sorry but if your "similarity" is "someone gave birth to someone", thats as vaguely braindead as hell.


                    and his association with the sun [as later was the Christ Jesus] are analogous.
                    Yeah that's not an influenced similarity either. Separate religions having gods for a common natural phenomenon does not indicate influence between them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      You really need to read up on the origins and history of your religion.


                      Says the clown who for decades has ranted and railed against a book she just cannot bother herself to read

                      Does it burn your hands when you touch a Bible?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        You have not presented a compelling argument that would lead anybody to reasonably conclude that Mark and John are not highlighting different aspects of the same person. Simply pointing out differences is hardly convincing.
                        As noted earlier


                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        And as noted often the contradictions are anything but. They're emphasizing different aspects not contradicting.

                        For instance, I recently heard an example of a couple discussing what they did Saturday (which I'll paraphrase)

                        Husband: We worked in the garden, then went to the hardware store and stopped to get lunch.

                        Wife: We planted gardenias and azaleas in the morning and later ran into Jack and June who just got back from vacation, before we stopped for lunch, where Harry (the husband) insisted on ordering a milkshake in spite of being lactose intolerant.


                        Two descriptions of the same day but describing the same things just with different emphasis.


                        The husband says they worked in the garden while the wife said they planted flowers. Two ways of saying the same thing.

                        The husband never said when they planted flowers in the garden, but indicates it was early by saying they had lunch afterwards.

                        The husband says they went out to the hardware store and then lunch.

                        The wife never said they went out but indicates it with her "then stopped for lunch" remark where they ordered their meals.

                        The wife adds that they met some friends while they were out. While the husband doesn't mention it, that doesn't mean it contradicts what he said. It just wasn't something he considered important enough to recount. Sort of like how the wife felt it unnecessary to mention that they stopped at the hardware store before lunch.

                        If the Gospels presented the exact same story we'd be right in suspecting collusion, but the fact that they describe the same things from different perspectives is precisely what one should expect when dealing with multiple sources.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          nor really. There is indeed essentially no similarity. And certainly not the close similarity JimL is claiming. As a historian you should know that but we both know you're a fraud.
                          I made it clear I was not considering direct similarities.


                          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          Horus is not "Lord of Heaven". Indeed the concept of heaven is not extant in Egyptian mythology. He's a sky deity.
                          Perhaps you should do some more reading.

                          From Henri Frankfort's Kingship and the Gods, University of Chicago,1948.

                          Horus is generally called "the Great God, the Lord of Heaven", and texts call up a strangely compelling image.


                          Later Frankfort describes a comb from the First Dynasty

                          On the comb the god Horus is thus represented a second time, first as the Lord of Heaven whose outstretched wings are the sky, and second as incarnate in the king named in the panel. He appears a third time, in the boat above the wings, as the sun sailing across the sky. [...] In the clumsy parlance of modern science we say that Horus was a sun god as well as a sky god; and we often forget that the spurious precision of such terms may effectively preclude an understanding of their true significance and suggest inconsistencies of our own making. Since Horus was a god of heaven, the most powerful object in the sky, the sun, was naturally considered a manifestation of his power.

                          [...] It has even been maintained that the epithet netjer aa "the Great God" which pertains to Horus pre-eminently really means "the Greatest God".


                          In her book Religion and Magic in Ancient Egypt, Penguin, 2002, Rosalie David has an Appendix on the Coffin texts and gives the text from the coffin of Nekht-Ankh. Part of the lid inscription translates as:

                          Utterance,1 may you sit upon the pesekh seat of turquoise at the prow of the barque of Re. May you purify yourself in the Cool Lake. May Anubis fumigate the incense for you, revered one, son of a local prince, Nekht-Ankh, offspring of Khnum-Aa.

                          A-boon-which-the-King-gives4 and boon which Anubis, Lord of Sep,gives in front of the divine booth, that he may ferry across, that he may be interred, that he may ascend to the great god, lord of heaven, in peace (twice), upon the beautiful ways of the West.


                          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          A deity being a father to another deity is not a similarity, its basic human projection.
                          What academic texts are you citing for that remark?

                          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          Im sorry but if your "similarity" is "someone gave birth to someone", thats as vaguely braindead as hell.
                          Across the ancient classical world Gods frequently fathered other gods, demi-gods and heroes. And I assume you are not going to reject the influence of Hellenism upon the ancient near east and indeed Christianity?

                          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          Yeah that's not an influenced similarity either. Separate religions having gods for a common natural phenomenon does not indicate influence between them.
                          Once again, what academic texts are you referencing in that remark?

                          I would note that you do not seem overly informed about comparative religion.


                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            As noted earlier



                            If the Gospels presented the exact same story we'd be right in suspecting collusion, but the fact that they describe the same things from different perspectives is precisely what one should expect when dealing with multiple sources.
                            So you keep writing but with nothing to support your comment.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post

                              Not only Horus, but the things attributed to the biblical/historical Jesus, the Virginia birth, the miracles, the healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, the crucifixion and resurrection of the diety, the promise of eternal life etc, etc are all elements of the more ancient myths.
                              The "Virginia birth"?

                              I'll admit that draws some humorous mental images.

                              Of course the first problem is that like claims that Mithra was born of a virgin (he was "born" from a rock), claims that Horus was born of a virgin is utter nonsense.

                              There are two different accounts regarding his birth, and in neither a virgin was involved. In fact, in both, he has a biological father (Osiris), and was conceived through sex.

                              In one, Horus was conceived by the union of Osiris and Isis right before Set killed the former.

                              In the second, more interesting version, Horus was still conceived by the union of Osiris and Isis, but right after Set killed the former, cut him up and then scattered the pieces of him. Isis was said to have gathered up the pieces, reconstructed him, although she had to create a new penis since a fish had eaten it, and had sex with the revivified corpse which impregnated her.

                              No virgin birth anywhere to be found.

                              FWIU, there were never any claims of Horus being born a virgin until well after the advent of Christianity. IOW, the pagans here borrowed the idea from Christianity. Looking at everything prior to that, virgin birth simply does not enter the picture.

                              For example, in the Great Hymn to Osiris found on the Stela of Amenmose (Louvre C 286) we find

                              Isis the powerful, protectress of her brother, who sought him tirelessly, who traversed this land in mourning and did not rest until she found him;
                              who gave him shade with her feathers and air with her wings;
                              who cried out, the mourning woman of her brother
                              who summoned dancers for the Weary of Heart;
                              who took in his seed and created the heir,
                              who suckled the child in solitude, no one knew where,
                              who brought him, when his arm was strong, into the hall of Geb -- the Ennead rejoiced: “Welcome, Osiris' son, Horus, stout of heart, justified, son of Isis, heir of Osiris.


                              In Legends of the Gods: The Egyptian Texts (edited with translations by E. A. Wallis Budge), in the section regarding the birth of Horus, a translation of a pyramid text dating from 2450-2140 B.C. states

                              Thy sister Isis cometh to thee rejoicing in her love for thee. Thou hast union with her, thy seed entereth her. She conceiveth in the form of the star Septet (Sothis). Horus-Sept issueth from thee in the form of Horus, dweller in the star Septet.


                              And in the same work, in the section regarding Isis we find a passage

                              I am Isis, who conceived a child by her husband, and she became heavy with Horus, the divine [child]. I gave birth to Horus, the son of Osiris, in a nest of papyrus plants.


                              There is even a carving found in the 19th Dynasty temple of Menma'atre’ Seti I (1290-1279 B.C.) at Abydos which was completed by his son Ramesses II, which depicts Isis (in bird form but labelled to make it clear) perched upon the mummified Osiris' erect penis.

                              Finally, Plutarch writes in his Moralia that “Osiris consorted with Isis after his death, and she became the mother of Harpocrates" (who was the Greek version of Horus)

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                So you keep writing but with nothing to support your comment.
                                Coming from the clown who continues to make proclamations that always lack any evidence. Simple declarations that everyone is just supposed to accept as fact on your say so.

                                When different sources relay the exact same accounts, that they colluded together to create a single narrative becomes obvious. Ask any judge or lawyer.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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