When does Renaissance sculpture become "pornography"? Discuss!

[Diogenes]

No.

If Rogue misquotes a book, you randomly chiming in with your assessment of the level of marxism of the author has zero relevance, and just shows obsessive behavior on your part.

I assessed no [specific] level of Marxism. I would have to find more I about the author. She had a husband at UCSD but she's not written much that I can find.

Seems self-evidently true. But I haven't followed the discussion.

I wouldn't be surprised at you defending mere nudity in schools. At least heroic nudity has a point but so far I've been the only one to introduce the topic (which would be part of Humanism and the actual purpose of David's nudity and nudity in Renaissance art) to the discussion while you and Hypatia are just at "nudity good".

I'm neither confirming or denying it because I'm not in any position to assess its truth value and not interested in doing so.

All one needs to do is make a cursory look into the topic of social reproduction and Pierre Bourdieu. I doubt though you would have any issue with application of critical theory in sociological analysis.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

My apologies. I missed it.

Apology accepted.

Dahl is just the most recent example in this trend that both sides seem all too eager to engage in.

I also understand Fleming's Bond novels and the works of Agatha Christie are also in line for a make-over to remove offensive/inappropriate content.

What's next, do we remove the mention of suicide in Romeo and Juliet? Ban the Merchant of Venice for anti-Semitism.

Hence my reference to Dr Bowdler.

I suspect a lot of this is being driven as much by money as pandering to the sensitivities of sections of the population - as I suggested in my reply.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

At least now you state you do not see such a need.

I am not the one who has suggested live sex demonstrations as part of a class sex ed lesson.

The chapter title is sufficient to understand she is employing a critical theorist lens

No it is not. You are simply displaying your prejudice and leaping to a conclusion without reading the text.

All one needs to do is make a cursory look into the topic of social reproduction and Pierre Bourdieu. I doubt though you would have any issue with application of critical theory in sociological analysis.

And what makes you think everyone on the Left agrees with Bourdieu? Have you ever been to a political meeting of those on the Left? They often resemble a Talmudical College.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I wouldn't be surprised at you defending mere nudity in schools. At least heroic nudity has a point but so far I've been the only one to introduce the topic (which would be part of Humanism and the actual purpose of David's nudity and nudity in Renaissance art) to the discussion while you and Hypatia are just at "nudity good".

The Hebrew and Christian god thought it [nudity] was good along with everything else it created.

[Diogenes]

I do not think three parents have the right to dictate their views to a school.

There was an oversight in sending out a "warning letter" and an apology for that oversight. Individuals with any grace might have accepted that and let the matter rest

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"? I would suggest that might be a rather dangerous policy given what some parents believe and do.

And now we see your true objection. You think the State knows best for children and not the parents.

I am not the one who has suggested live sex demonstrations as part of a class sex ed lesson.

Obviously I would be against such demonstrations. The point of course is to present an extreme situation, a common practice.

No it is not. You are simply displaying your prejudice and leaping to a conclusion without reading the text.

Chapter titles inherently are informative of the chapter contents much as a book title is informative of the contents of the book. A chapter employing a term within critical sociology, all things equal, would be indicative of the usage of a critical lens within the chapter. It's hilarious to see you argue against chapter titles to divert from the usage of critica sociology.

And what makes you think everyone on the Left agrees with Bourdieu? Have you ever been to a political meeting of those on the Left? They often resemble a Talmudical College.

I've seen the term elsewhere, but never looked into it, besides, the focus is the author, not the Left in it's entirety.


You still have yet to address the (in)ability of sixth graders to understand heroic nudity and it's pedagogical importance at the sixth grade level. Your criticism of the parent is no more intelligent than the parent's criticism of the statue.

I do not think three parents have the right to dictate their views to a school.

There was an oversight in sending out a "warning letter" and an apology for that oversight. Individuals with any grace might have accepted that and let the matter rest

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"? I would suggest that might be a rather dangerous policy given what some parents believe and do.

And now we see your true objection. You think the State knows best for children and not the parents.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I think the parents were right. Regardless of your lack of morals when it comes to other people's children and what they deem appropriate for their own kids.

I do not think three parents have the right to dictate their views to a school.

There was an oversight in sending out a "warning letter" and an apology for that oversight. Individuals with any grace might have accepted that and let the matter rest

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"? I would suggest that might be a rather dangerous policy given what some parents believe and do.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A reaction from the Italian art experts and various Florentines

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65087218

My emphasis:

The Florence museum that houses Michelangelo's statue of David has invited teachers and students from a Florida school to visit, after an uproar over an art lesson.

The school's principal quit after a complaint about a sixth-grade art class that included an image of the statue.

A parent had complained the image was pornographic.

Cecilie Hollberg, director of Galleria dell'Accademia, has now issued the invitation to the class.

She said the principal should be "rewarded, not punished".

"Talking about the Renaissance without showing the David, an undisputed icon of art and culture and of that historical period, would make no sense," Ms Hollberg said.

The controversy began when the board of Tallahassee Classical School - a charter school in Florida's state capital - pressured principal Hope Carrasquilla to resign after three parents complained about a lesson that included a photo of the 17ft nude marble statue.

The statue, one of the most famous in Western history, depicts the biblical David going to fight Goliath armed only with a sling and his faith in God.

The board reportedly targeted Ms Carrasquilla because the parents claimed they weren't notified in advance that a nude would be shown, with one parent calling the statue "pornographic".

The incident has left Florentines and experts on Renaissance art bewildered.

The David is considered a masterpiece of the Italian Renaissance and a symbol of humanist values. It has been displayed in the Galleria dell'Accademia since 1873.

Ms Hollberg said she was "astonished", stating that to think that the David statue could be considered pornographic means not only failing to understand the Bible, but Western culture itself.

"I cannot believe that actually happened, at first I thought it was fake news, so improbable and absurd was it," she said.

"A distinction must be made between nudity and pornography. There is nothing pornographic or aggressive about the David, he is a young boy, a shepherd, who even according to the Bible did not have ostentatious clothes but wanted to defend his people with what he had."

The mayor of Florence, Dario Nardella, also invited the teacher who showed the students the image of Michelangelo's David to visit the city and its works of art.

"Mistaking art for pornography is simply ridiculous," he tweeted. "Art is civilisation and those who teach it deserve respect."

In an interview with Slate online magazine, Barney Bishop, chairman of the school board, said that last year the principal sent a notice to parents warning them that students were going to see Michelangelo's David, but this wasn't done this year.

He called it an "egregious mistake" and said that "parents are entitled to know anytime their child is being taught a controversial topic and picture".

According to Florentine art historian and dean of the University for Foreigners in Siena, Tomaso Montanari, such an attitude is "disconcerting".

"First comes the dismay at the absence of educational freedom, as it should not be restricted or manipulated by families," Mr Montanari said.

"On the other hand, from a cultural perspective, the Western world has a tendency to associate fundamentalism and censorship with other societies, believing it possesses the capability to spread democratic ideals worldwide.

"But this cultural backsliding clearly highlights the presence of fundamentalist views within the West as well."

While several parents and teachers plan to protest Ms Carrasquilla's resignation at the school board meeting, she isn't sure she would take the job back even if it were offered.

"There's been such controversy and such upheaval," she said in an interview with the Associated Press. "I would really have to consider, 'Is this truly what is best?'"

Back in Florence, Ms Hollberg remarked: "From majestic statues to charming fountains and paintings, Italy is overflowing with works of art, not just in its museums, but in all its cities, squares and streets, with some featuring naked figures.

"Does that make it pornography? Should entire cities be shut down because of the artistic depictions of the human form?"

As several more tolerant individuals have noted here there has to be a distinction between nude art and pornography.

However, it appears that Ms Carrasquilla may be in line for an expenses paid holiday to Florence. Lucky lady!

[Diogenes]

A reaction from the Italian art experts and various Florentines

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65087218

My emphasis:

"First comes the dismay at the absence of educational freedom, as it should not be restricted or manipulated by families," Mr Montanari said.

And there's the issue you and the Left are having. Parents getting involved. It's the exact same issue with all the book banning. The Right is trying to take back paternal control of their children from a paternalistic State and the Left is refusing to give up the power.


This has nothing to do with art.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

And there's the issue you and the Left are having. Parents getting involved. It's the exact same issue with all the book banning. The Right is trying to take back paternal control of their children from a paternalistic State and the Left is refusing to give up the power.


This has nothing to do with art.

I will put the same question to you that I put to BtC:

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"?

[Diogenes]

I will put the same question to you that I put to BtC:

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"?

If a parent objected to the State teaching their child 2+2=4, I would say "too bad". You're not asking in good faith, we all know this.

[rogue06]

There was no error in my thinking, just in yours.

Some male to female transgender people in the present day undergo an operation to have their genitals removed. The Vatican chopped off the genitals of most of their male statues.

That's true, it's what I referenced, and I didn't conclude anything further, just stated the observation of those facts for the purposes of making a joke. Cerebrum got the joke, he though it was funny. If you think there's an error in what I said, it's in your mind.

I realized it was a joke but by including "that it amusingly links to modern transgenderism in the sense of cutting off of the genitalia" you can not argue that you also were not linking castration to transgenders.

She does get critiqued for academic reviewers for not being very consistent through her book. They explicitly point to the quote you gave as contradicting the main thesis of her book. The overall thesis of her book from start to finish is that Eunuchs were part of a 3rd gender in Byzantine society. You could argue she makes a bad case, you could argue she contradicts herself in the book, or you could even randomly and apropos of nothing declare that she's totally a marxist like weirdly obsesssed Diogenes does. But arguing that her book says the opposite to its main thesis based on one out of context quote? No. It's just you being outright wrong. I suggest you cross it off your list of "Rogue's out of context citations" that you seem to have stashed somewhere.

Straw man much?

Please link to this supposed quote of mine that I take out of context that's got your knickers in such a twist.

This should be amusing.

[Bill the Cat]

I do not think three parents have the right to dictate their views to a school.

When it comes to matters of exposing minors to nude images, I absolutely do.

There was an oversight in sending out a "warning letter" and an apology for that oversight. Individuals with any grace might have accepted that and let the matter rest

The old "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" trope, eh?

Do you consider that parents should always be the arbiters concerning everything they deem "appropriate for their own kids"?

Absolutely. The only exception to that rule would be matters of abuse.

I would suggest that might be a rather dangerous policy given what some parents believe and do.

And I would suggest it is the proper course of action since the kids belong to the parents, not the state, comrade.

[rogue06]

No.

If Rogue misquotes a book, you randomly chiming in with your assessment of the level of marxism of the author has zero relevance, and just shows obsessive behavior on your part.

Again, please provide a link to where I "misquotes a book" here.

You are making things up.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

If a parent objected to the State teaching their child 2+2=4, I would say "too bad". You're not asking in good faith, we all know this.

Yet you were rather exercised about the Finders and their parental choices.

Or is parental choice only deemed acceptable by you if it conforms with your own views?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

When it comes to matters of exposing minors to nude images, I absolutely do.

Have you ever taken your family to an art gallery or a museum? Would you consider the Trevi Fountains or the Mannekin Pis to be inappropriate/off limits for young children?

The old "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" trope, eh?

The school policy was, apparently on this occasion, overlooked, which was unfortunate.

Absolutely. The only exception to that rule would be matters of abuse.

Define what you consider to be "matters of abuse"?

And I would suggest it is the proper course of action since the kids belong to the parents, not the state, comrade.

Children as property? Very pater familias!