Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

When does Renaissance sculpture become "pornography"? Discuss!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Doubtful since it was all declassified decades ago and the article is from 2016. But it was all still top secret when Fleming wrote about it.
    However, as the public was unaware one wonders why it was of concern. Interesting, although as I have never read a word of Fleming I must bow to your greater knowledge.


    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      "I fail to see the necessity for quoting scripture - it brings nothing to the exchange."

      She then goes on to quote scripture.

      And I already answered your question: Nakedness, then, became shameful because of the loss of innocence brought on by sin.
      My quotes pertained to the chapter itself not random quotes from Proverbs which tell us nothing whatsoever concerning what you deem to be "healthy feelings of guilt".

      How did nakedness become shameful? Your comment suggests that nakedness always was shameful it was simply that A&E did not know it was shameful until they gained the same knowledge as the deity.

      I repeat that the "sin" was disobedience. There is no mention of "innocence" in that entire chapter of Genesis. So from what textual source are you obtaining your comment that:

      Nakedness, then, became shameful because of the loss of innocence brought on by sin.




      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        My quotes pertained to the chapter itself not random quotes from Proverbs which tell us nothing whatsoever concerning what you deem to be "healthy feelings of guilt".

        How did nakedness become shameful? Your comment suggests that nakedness always was shameful it was simply that A&E did not know it was shameful until they gained the same knowledge as the deity.

        I repeat that the "sin" was disobedience. There is no mention of "innocence" in that entire chapter of Genesis. So from what textual source are you obtaining your comment that:

        Nakedness, then, became shameful because of the loss of innocence brought on by sin.
        That you think the quote from Proverbs was "random" and did not pertain to the discussion at hand is your problem, not mine. It was intended to help you reason out the answer to the very simple theological question, "Why do you suppose nakedness would be considered shameful in a sinful world, but not in a sinless one?" If you find yourself unable to connect the dots, then it would seem you are not half as clever as you think you are.

        And, no, I never suggested "that nakedness always was shameful". On the contrary, I very clearly said the exact opposite: "Of course nakedness was not always shameful. After finishing his act of creation, God declared everything good, [which included] the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Nakedness, then, became shameful because of the loss of innocence brought on by sin." I really don't know how to state it any more clearly.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          However, as the public was unaware one wonders why it was of concern. Interesting, although as I have never read a word of Fleming I must bow to your greater knowledge.

          I'm no Bond "expert" (although I've read every book and seen all but the latest movie -- which I have recorded on my DVR for a later date) which I thoroughly enjoyed.

          If you ever do decide to watch one of the movies, I suggest the earlier Sean Connery ones (Thunderball, Dr. No, From Russia With Love, Goldfinger and Casino Royale) since they are heavily based on the books. In later years they simply took a book title and the premise and then wrote entirely new stories.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Precisely my point. Faced with the suspicions and gossip of your neighbours, friends, church members you might find the reality a great deal harder. And of course even after exoneration there is the saying that mud sticks.
            That's completely unrelated to anything this thread is about. I mentioned suspected abuse as an exception where the state should be able to interject in the exclusive parent/child relationship. I'll not bother running that rabbit trail any longer.

            You do not offer any reason apart from paternal objections.
            Nor do I need any.

            You cannot know that as we all have an unconscious and we all carry emotional baggage often passed to us by the attitudes given to us, and our experiences of, our formative years [i.e. pre six years old].
            The good thing is that it's still between me and my kids if they disagree with how much they were sheltered, and generally none of your business.

            You would also need to define what you understand by your terms "well adjusted" and "good mother".
            No I don't.

            Interesting language.

            You appear somewhat defensive re your the comment "none of you pay my bills"
            That's a Southern saying for "it's none of your business"

            You also associate any acceptance of the naked human body in art to be the mindset of those whom you consider "reprobate". And that such art is "vulgar" - the use of which word I assume you to mean - [indecent; obscene; lewd]; as opposed to something/someone ordinary or common or unrefined/coarse:
            No. I consider it indecent. Adults are perfectly capable of moderating the level and quantity of indecency that they consume. Children are not. Their parents should be the ones that set those limits, and that authority should NEVER be overridden by the state. Heck, there are people who consider pornographic videos "art" and even apparently put on awards shows for the genre. Would you, as a parent, be ok with your 8 year old sitting through a class screening of Debbie Does Dallas or Lady Chatterly's Lovers? Or would you want the authority to draw the line where you consider things decent or indecent?

            Thought so...
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Would you, as a parent, be ok with your 8 year old sitting through a class screening of Debbie Does Dallas or Lady Chatterly's Lovers? Or would you want the authority to draw the line where you consider things decent or indecent?
              Knowing how morally twisted Hypatia_Alexandria is, I wouldn't be surprised if she considered this perfectly acceptable.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                You cannot know that as we all have an unconscious and we all carry emotional baggage often passed to us by the attitudes given to us, and our experiences of, our formative years [i.e. pre six years old].
                This is not the first time you've alluded to this, and I can't help but think it's projection. Not everyone has an emotionally traumatic childhood.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  That you think the quote from Proverbs was "random" and did not pertain to the discussion at hand is your problem, not mine. It was intended to help you reason out the answer to the very simple theological question, "Why do you suppose nakedness would be considered shameful in a sinful world, but not in a sinless one?" If you find yourself unable to connect the dots, then it would seem you are not half as clever as you think you are.

                  And, no, I never suggested "that nakedness always was shameful". On the contrary, I very clearly said the exact opposite: "Of course nakedness was not always shameful. After finishing his act of creation, God declared everything good, [which included] the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Nakedness, then, became shameful because of the loss of innocence brought on by sin." I really don't know how to state it any more clearly.
                  I do not see the relevance of quoting Proverbs. Nor have you fully explained how in Genesis 3 shame about nakedness was the result of the loss of innocence. Innocence in its strictest sense meaning harmless.

                  That A&E realised they were naked after consuming the fruit indicates they acquired the same knowledge as the deity regarding nudity. So if they suddenly realised their shame, it follows that nudity/nakedness was always shameful but they did not realise that until they had gained the same knowledge as the deity.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    That's completely unrelated to anything this thread is about. I mentioned suspected abuse as an exception where the state should be able to interject in the exclusive parent/child relationship. I'll not bother running that rabbit trail any longer.



                    Nor do I need any.



                    The good thing is that it's still between me and my kids if they disagree with how much they were sheltered, and generally none of your business.



                    No I don't.



                    That's a Southern saying for "it's none of your business"



                    No. I consider it indecent. Adults are perfectly capable of moderating the level and quantity of indecency that they consume. Children are not. Their parents should be the ones that set those limits, and that authority should NEVER be overridden by the state. Heck, there are people who consider pornographic videos "art" and even apparently put on awards shows for the genre. Would you, as a parent, be ok with your 8 year old sitting through a class screening of Debbie Does Dallas or Lady Chatterly's Lovers? Or would you want the authority to draw the line where you consider things decent or indecent?

                    Thought so...
                    You fundies do write the oddest things.

                    I fail to see any connection between a classic piece of Renaissance sculpture and a porn film [whose title I had to look up].

                    Nor can anyone view a screening of Lady Chatterley's Lover [note the singular]. It is a text which is rather laboured and somewhat dull.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      You fundies do write the oddest things.
                      Standard fare for our amoral Fraulein...

                      I fail to see any connection between a classic piece of Renaissance sculpture and a porn film [whose title I had to look up].
                      Of course you don't.

                      Nor can anyone view a screening of Lady Chatterley's Lover [note the singular]. It is a text which is rather laboured and somewhat dull.
                      Au contraire. My early Air Force pre-Christian days educated me on this film...

                      https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0082640/

                      Again, you've yet to provide a convincing argument that the state should override the parents' wishes when it comes to exposing a child to nude images
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



                        Nor can anyone view a screening of Lady Chatterley's Lover [note the singular]. It is a text which is rather laboured and somewhat dull.
                        Actually, there have been a number of adaptations (including sequels) of Lady Chatterley's Lover over the years including x-rated versions that I don't show here


                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                          Standard fare for our amoral Fraulein...



                          Of course you don't.



                          Au contraire. My early Air Force pre-Christian days educated me on this film...

                          https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0082640/

                          Again, you've yet to provide a convincing argument that the state should override the parents' wishes when it comes to exposing a child to nude images
                          That one was running on Showtime or The Movie Channel (TMC) when I first got it.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            I'm no Bond "expert" (although I've read every book and seen all but the latest movie -- which I have recorded on my DVR for a later date) which I thoroughly enjoyed.

                            If you ever do decide to watch one of the movies, I suggest the earlier Sean Connery ones (Thunderball, Dr. No, From Russia With Love, Goldfinger and Casino Royale) since they are heavily based on the books. In later years they simply took a book title and the premise and then wrote entirely new stories.
                            Thank you for the suggestions but Bond films are not really my type of movie.

                            I do recall an interesting film I watched many years ago that starred Connery entitled Five Days One Summer. He was also very good as William of Baskerville in The Name of the Rose, and did an amusing cameo as Agamemnon in Gilliam's Time Bandits.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              This is not the first time you've alluded to this, and I can't help but think it's projection. Not everyone has an emotionally traumatic childhood.
                              Who mentioned "traumatic" with regard to childhood? We all have memories of things that occurred when we were young - it is part of our life experience.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                Standard fare for our amoral Fraulein...
                                Are you sure you intended amoral?

                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                Of course you don't.
                                You have yet to present such a correlation.


                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Au contraire. My early Air Force pre-Christian days educated me on this film...
                                It is a book that was made into films. The original is text.


                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Again, you've yet to provide a convincing argument that the state should override the parents' wishes when it comes to exposing a child to nude images
                                You have yet to provide a convincing argument as to why parents are always the ones to make such decisions. All you have offered is what you consider to be your role as pater familias.

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                7 responses
                                63 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                42 responses
                                247 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                107 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                194 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                73 responses
                                334 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X