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When does Renaissance sculpture become "pornography"? Discuss!

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  • When does Renaissance sculpture become "pornography"? Discuss!

    Prudery for some seems to know no bounds.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65071989

    A principal of a Florida school has been forced to resign after a parent complained that sixth-grade students were exposed to pornography.

    The complaint arose from a Renaissance art lesson where students were shown Michelangelo's statue of David.

    The iconic statue is one of the most famous in Western history.

    But one parent complained the material was pornographic and two others said they wanted to know about the class before it was taught.

    The 5.17m (17ft) statue depicts an entirely naked David, the Biblical figure who kills the giant Goliath.

    The lesson, given to 11 and 12-year-olds, also included references to Michelangelo's "Creation of Adam" painting and Botticelli's "Birth of Venus".

    Principal Hope Carrasquilla of Tallahassee Classical School said she resigned after she was given an ultimatum by the school board to resign or be fired.

    Local media reported that Ms Carrasquilla did not know the reason she was asked to resign, but believed it was related to the complaints over the lesson.

    They also said Ms Carrasquilla had been principal for less than one year.

    In an interview with US outlet Slate, the chair of the school's board, Barney Bishop III, said that last year the principal sent a notice to parents warning them that students were going to see Michelangelo's David - but that this wasn't done this year. He called it an "egregious mistake" and said that "parents are entitled to know anytime their child is being taught a controversial topic and picture".

    "We're not going to show the full statue of David to kindergartners. We're not going to show him to second graders. Showing the entire statue of David is appropriate at some age. We're going to figure out when that is," Mr Bishop said.

    On Thursday, Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, moved to expand a law that banned public schools from teaching sexual education and gender identity.

    Teachers who violate the law face being suspended or losing their teaching licences.

    The David was completed by Michelangelo between 1501 and 1504. It was instantly hailed as a masterpiece, with Renaissance artist Giorgio Vasari saying the David "surpassed" any statue that had ever existed before.

    Queen Victoria gifted a copy of the David to the South Kensington museum - later the V&A - in 1857. When she first saw the cast, she was apparently so shocked by the nudity that a fig leaf was commissioned to cover up the genitalia.

    The V&A's website says that the leaf was kept "in readiness for any royal visits, when it was hung on the figure using two strategically placed hooks."


    Irrespective of Victoria's apparent shock at male full frontal nudity even depicted in marble, I am left wondering if the child[ren] of the complainant have never seen either their own or their siblings' naked bodies.



    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Prudery for some seems to know no bounds.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65071989

    A principal of a Florida school has been forced to resign after a parent complained that sixth-grade students were exposed to pornography.

    The complaint arose from a Renaissance art lesson where students were shown Michelangelo's statue of David.

    The iconic statue is one of the most famous in Western history.

    But one parent complained the material was pornographic and two others said they wanted to know about the class before it was taught.

    The 5.17m (17ft) statue depicts an entirely naked David, the Biblical figure who kills the giant Goliath.

    The lesson, given to 11 and 12-year-olds, also included references to Michelangelo's "Creation of Adam" painting and Botticelli's "Birth of Venus".

    Principal Hope Carrasquilla of Tallahassee Classical School said she resigned after she was given an ultimatum by the school board to resign or be fired.

    Local media reported that Ms Carrasquilla did not know the reason she was asked to resign, but believed it was related to the complaints over the lesson.

    They also said Ms Carrasquilla had been principal for less than one year.

    In an interview with US outlet Slate, the chair of the school's board, Barney Bishop III, said that last year the principal sent a notice to parents warning them that students were going to see Michelangelo's David - but that this wasn't done this year. He called it an "egregious mistake" and said that "parents are entitled to know anytime their child is being taught a controversial topic and picture".

    "We're not going to show the full statue of David to kindergartners. We're not going to show him to second graders. Showing the entire statue of David is appropriate at some age. We're going to figure out when that is," Mr Bishop said.

    On Thursday, Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, moved to expand a law that banned public schools from teaching sexual education and gender identity.

    Teachers who violate the law face being suspended or losing their teaching licences.

    The David was completed by Michelangelo between 1501 and 1504. It was instantly hailed as a masterpiece, with Renaissance artist Giorgio Vasari saying the David "surpassed" any statue that had ever existed before.

    Queen Victoria gifted a copy of the David to the South Kensington museum - later the V&A - in 1857. When she first saw the cast, she was apparently so shocked by the nudity that a fig leaf was commissioned to cover up the genitalia.

    The V&A's website says that the leaf was kept "in readiness for any royal visits, when it was hung on the figure using two strategically placed hooks."


    Irrespective of Victoria's apparent shock at male full frontal nudity even depicted in marble, I am left wondering if the child[ren] of the complainant have never seen either their own or their siblings' naked bodies.


    About the same time "To Kill a Mocking Bird" became racist. Though, this is another post by proxy of yours.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

      About the same time "To Kill a Mocking Bird" became racist.
      Am I to take that remark as tacit agreement that this parent's reaction is both excessive and ridiculous?


      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
      Though, this is another post by proxy of yours.
      No more a post by proxy than any other thread that cites a news item and makes comments on that news item in itsOP.



      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #4
        When does Renaissance sculpture become "pornography"?

        That's going to be a subjective call, and the outcome will be determined by how much the parent wants to crusade it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          Am I to take that remark as tacit agreement that this parent's reaction is both excessive and ridiculous?


          No more a post by proxy than any other thread that cites a news item and makes comments on that news item in itsOP.


          Yes, it is ridiculous.

          Comment


          • #6
            IMO the complaint reflects an attitude just as warped as the attitudes of people wanting to do strip shows for children. Just the opposite end of the scale.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #7
              Not to get into a "What is pornography?" debate, but certainly parents have a right to object to what their children are being exposed to in the classroom, and personally, I do question the wisdom of showing nude images, even in the context of art, to 11 and 12 year olds. At the very least, I think a waiver of parental consent should have been dispatched before the lesson was taught. I've received similar letters from my own children's schools when the subject matter of a lesson is one that a parent might reasonably object to.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                At least @ me next time. Given that nudity in Renaissance art deemphasises of genitalia or breasts in favor of emphasising a holistic ideal of the human form, calling it pornography is an exaggeration. That said, seeing as it is still nudity, I do think it should have been disclosed for the sixth-grade level. Perhaps nudity in art should wait until the 8th grade. Unless you're focusing on art history, art is not that important and is more or less a side item to broader ideological periods. In the case of the Renaissance, the more important aspect is the the Humanism that lead to a rebirth of classical holistic ideals of the human form.

                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Not to get into a "What is pornography?" debate, but certainly parents have a right to object to what their children are being exposed to in the classroom, and personally, I do question the wisdom of showing nude images, even in the context of art, to 11 and 12 year olds.
                Desensitization.
                Last edited by Diogenes; 03-26-2023, 12:02 PM.
                P1) If , then I win.

                P2)

                C) I win.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Prudery for some seems to know no bounds.

                  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65071989

                  A principal of a Florida school has been forced to resign after a parent complained that sixth-grade students were exposed to pornography.

                  The complaint arose from a Renaissance art lesson where students were shown Michelangelo's statue of David.

                  The iconic statue is one of the most famous in Western history.

                  But one parent complained the material was pornographic and two others said they wanted to know about the class before it was taught.

                  The 5.17m (17ft) statue depicts an entirely naked David, the Biblical figure who kills the giant Goliath.

                  The lesson, given to 11 and 12-year-olds, also included references to Michelangelo's "Creation of Adam" painting and Botticelli's "Birth of Venus".

                  Principal Hope Carrasquilla of Tallahassee Classical School said she resigned after she was given an ultimatum by the school board to resign or be fired.

                  Local media reported that Ms Carrasquilla did not know the reason she was asked to resign, but believed it was related to the complaints over the lesson.

                  They also said Ms Carrasquilla had been principal for less than one year.

                  In an interview with US outlet Slate, the chair of the school's board, Barney Bishop III, said that last year the principal sent a notice to parents warning them that students were going to see Michelangelo's David - but that this wasn't done this year. He called it an "egregious mistake" and said that "parents are entitled to know anytime their child is being taught a controversial topic and picture".

                  "We're not going to show the full statue of David to kindergartners. We're not going to show him to second graders. Showing the entire statue of David is appropriate at some age. We're going to figure out when that is," Mr Bishop said.

                  On Thursday, Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, moved to expand a law that banned public schools from teaching sexual education and gender identity.

                  Teachers who violate the law face being suspended or losing their teaching licences.

                  The David was completed by Michelangelo between 1501 and 1504. It was instantly hailed as a masterpiece, with Renaissance artist Giorgio Vasari saying the David "surpassed" any statue that had ever existed before.

                  Queen Victoria gifted a copy of the David to the South Kensington museum - later the V&A - in 1857. When she first saw the cast, she was apparently so shocked by the nudity that a fig leaf was commissioned to cover up the genitalia.

                  The V&A's website says that the leaf was kept "in readiness for any royal visits, when it was hung on the figure using two strategically placed hooks."


                  Irrespective of Victoria's apparent shock at male full frontal nudity even depicted in marble, I am left wondering if the child[ren] of the complainant have never seen either their own or their siblings' naked bodies.


                  What's your opinion? Not Slate's proxy opinion, but yours?

                  Mine is that the objection ( and certainly the firing/release - if indeed it was because of this, which we aren't sure of) is pretty silly. I do like that they gave a warning or notice to parents, I think that's the way to handle it and deal with people like this.

                  Now, if the art were something other than the David, say, Leta and the Swan or The Monk In the Cornfield, or The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife, I'd say that the objection was a bit more reasonable and that the claim of pornography was at least quite a bit more valid and would say perhaps that's something best left for those in later years of high school. But as it is, yeah, I don't agree with the objection or the firing (again if that firing was indeed for that).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Not to get into a "What is pornography?" debate, but certainly parents have a right to object to what their children are being exposed to in the classroom, and personally, I do question the wisdom of showing nude images, even in the context of art, to 11 and 12 year olds. At the very least, I think a waiver of parental consent should have been dispatched before the lesson was taught. I've received similar letters from my own children's schools when the subject matter of a lesson is one that a parent might reasonably object to.
                    This article in the Guardian addresses some of your points. Although I do not understand why you

                    question the wisdom of showing nude images, even in the context of art, to 11 and 12 year olds


                    Are 11 and 12 year olds not familiar with their own bodies or those of their siblings?

                    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...elangelo-david

                    A Florida principal has resigned after students at a Christian charter school in Tallahassee were shown the statue of the biblical figure David by Michelangelo, prompting at least one parent to complain that the children had been exposed to pornography.

                    Hope Carrasquilla resigned Monday as principal of the Tallahassee Classical school after the campus’s governing board told her to either step down or be fired over parental complaints that came in after sixth-grade students were shown the 16th-century sculpture, one of the Renaissance’s most famous pieces of art.

                    While not directly related to the legislation, Carrasquilla made her decision to resign as far-right Florida governor Ron DeSantis pushes to expand a law prohibiting public schools from teaching sex education and gender identity. That law is part of a broader conservative movement advocating for so-called parents’ rights, which purport to give parents more of a say in their children’s education but – according to critics – is really a guise to advance a rightwing ideological agenda in schools.

                    The Tallahassee Democrat reported that one of the school’s parents called the image of Michelangelo’s David “pornographic”. Carrasquilla told HuffPost that the school’s usual protocol is to notify parents by letter when students are to be shown “potentially controversial” classical artwork. However, as a result of a “series of miscommunications”, the letter was not sent out to the sixth-graders’ parents before they were shown the David sculpture.

                    One parent “felt her child should not be viewing those pieces” and described being “point-blank upset”, Carrasquilla told the outlet.

                    Tallahassee Classical school is affiliated with Hillsdale College, a Michigan-based private conservative Christian institution. According to its website, the school aims to “train the minds and improve the hearts of young people through a content-rich classical education in the liberal arts and sciences, with instruction in the principles of moral character and civic virtue”.

                    In an interview with Slate, Tallahassee Classical school’s board chairperson Barney Bishop III said that the issue was not that Renaissance art was shown to students but rather that parents were not notified beforehand. The Washington Post reported that the lesson plan which featured the statue of David also included pictures of Michelangelo’s fresco painting The Creation of Adam and Botticelli’s Birth of Venus, which both depict nudity.

                    “We have a practice,” Bishop said. “Last year, the school sent out an advance notice about it. Parents should know: in class, students are going to see or hear or talk about this. This year, we didn’t send out that notice.”

                    He added: “This year, we made an egregious mistake. We didn’t send that notice. Look, we’re not a public school. We’re a public charter. Parents, after they saw all the crap that’s being taught in public schools during [the Covid-19 pandemic] decided on their own that they didn’t want their children to be taught that.

                    “The rights of parents, that trumps the rights of kids.”

                    Last month, as part of his culture war against BIPOC and LGBTQ+ communities, DeSantis announced plans to prevent state colleges from having diversity, equity and inclusion programs, as well as programs on critical race theory.

                    The announcement follows the governor’s ban on African American Advanced Placement studies classes in January as well as all discussions of sexuality and gender identity in public schools.

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                      What's your opinion? Not Slate's proxy opinion, but yours?

                      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                      Though, this is another post by proxy of yours.

                      It's quite easy to form opinions when all you have to say "I agree" to an article. It's also easier to simply post an article just say "Opinion?".

                      P1) If , then I win.

                      P2)

                      C) I win.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                        What's your opinion? Not Slate's proxy opinion, but yours?
                        I think the parent is a repressed prig but there seem to be a lot of those in the USA when it comes to nudity and the human body.

                        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                        Mine is that the objection ( and certainly the firing/release - if indeed it was because of this, which we aren't sure of) is pretty silly. I do like that they gave a warning or notice to parents, I think that's the way to handle it and deal with people like this.
                        I take your point although when it comes to something as well known as Michalangelo's David or Botticelli's Birth of Venus [reproduced brilliantly by Terry Gilliam in his 1988 film The Adventures of Baron Munchausen [US rating PG] I would not consider parental consent necessary.

                        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                        Now, if the art were something other than the David, say, Leta and the Swan or The Monk In the Cornfield, or The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife, I'd say that the objection was a bit more reasonable and that the claim of pornography was at least quite a bit more valid and would say perhaps that's something best left for those in later years of high school. But as it is, yeah, I don't agree with the objection or the firing (again if that firing was indeed for that).
                        I agree those other works are for older children although I would not consider them remotely pornographic nor would I Coubert's [in]famous painting, which I think is quite amusing.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          I think the parent is a repressed prig but there seem to be a lot of those in the USA when it comes to nudity and the human body.
                          "People who disagree with me are repressed prigs".



                          I take your point although when it comes to something as well known as Michalangelo's David or Botticelli's Birth of Venus [reproduced brilliantly by Terry Gilliam in his 1988 film The Adventures of Baron Munchausen [US rating PG] I would not consider parental consent necessary.

                          Ah yes, let's compare something happening under the auspices of the State to a movie rated "Parental guidance suggested – Some material may not be suitable for children."

                          I agree those other works are for older children although I would not consider them remotely pornographic nor would I Coubert's [in]famous painting, which I think is quite amusing.
                          Ah yes, depictions of bestiality or other depictions of sex acts not "remotely pornographic".
                          P1) If , then I win.

                          P2)

                          C) I win.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            At least @ me next time. Given that nudity in Renaissance art deemphasises of genitalia or breasts in favor of emphasising a holistic ideal of the human form, calling it pornography is an exaggeration.
                            So you do not consider nudity to be pornography?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            That said, seeing as it is still nudity,
                            So?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            I do think it should have been disclosed for the sixth-grade level.
                            Why?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            Perhaps nudity in art should wait until the 8th grade.
                            Why?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            Unless you're focusing on art history, art is not that important and is more or less a side item to broader ideological periods.
                            Should younger children not be exposed to art? Do you extend that to illustrations in children's books? Should Tenniel's illustrations for the Alice books be banned because some of the characters look rather sinister or monstrous? What about Maurice Sendak's wild things? Or Rackham's illustrations for Brothers Grimm?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            In the case of the Renaissance, the more important aspect is the the Humanism that lead to a rebirth of classical holistic ideals of the human form.
                            Without showing the art that depicts naked human beings which was common throughout the classical world [especially the male form]?

                            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                            Desensitization.
                            As all of us [including children] see our own naked bodies every time we get undressed. How does showing children a photograph of a sculpture lead to "Densensitization"?

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              I think the parent is a repressed prig but there seem to be a lot of those in the USA when it comes to nudity and the human body.
                              Thank you for giving your own actual opinion.


                              I take your point although when it comes to something as well known as Michalangelo's David or Botticelli's Birth of Venus [reproduced brilliantly by Terry Gilliam in his 1988 film The Adventures of Baron Munchausen [US rating PG] I would not consider parental consent necessary.
                              Necessary? No. A good thing to be communicating to parents? Yes.

                              Interesting though, your note about something being rated PG (parental guidance suggested) followed immediately by you saying you don't consider parental consent necessary.....
                              I agree those other works are for older children although I would not consider them remotely pornographic nor would I Coubert's [in]famous painting, which I think is quite amusing.
                              They're certainly far closer to pornography than the David, but I would agree there.
                              Last edited by Gondwanaland; 03-26-2023, 01:00 PM.

                              Comment

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