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Why Haven't We Shot Down Spy Balloon?

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  • Originally posted by seanD View Post
    You don't make a bold claim like that about the prior admin (which sounds like a political accusation) without first clarifying that the prior admin didn't know about it. The latter would be the actions of someone honestly conveying truth and not wanting to cause unnecessary confusion the likes of which we saw in the aftermath. However, this is how I would expect them to do it if they're lying because they're embarrassed about it happening during their watch and then need to revise their lie to the public as necessary.
    Multiple Trump admin officials have now done interviews where they emphasized that no cases where balloons were visible to the public and generating media headlines occurred under the Trump administration. The implication is that they're not denying, but prefer not to talk about, the 3-4 Chinese balloons that impinged on US airspace during the Trump administration but which didn't attract public notice.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Multiple Trump admin officials have now done interviews where they emphasized that no cases where balloons were visible to the public and generating media headlines occurred under the Trump administration. The implication is that they're not denying, but prefer not to talk about, the 3-4 Chinese balloons that impinged on US airspace during the Trump administration but which didn't attract public notice.

      Christopher Miller flatly denied it. Ratcliffe also denied it and even gave reasons why he believed it didn't happen. But I'm not going to go back and look at every interview of every official since I'll just assume you're wrong because getting things wrong is just your nature.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
        You don't make a bold claim like that about the prior admin (which sounds like a political accusation) without first clarifying that the prior admin didn't know about it. The latter would be the actions of someone honestly conveying truth and not wanting to cause unnecessary confusion the likes of which we saw in the aftermath. However, this is how I would expect them to do it if they're lying because they're embarrassed about it happening during their watch and then need to revise their lie to the public as necessary.
        Certainly some political pundits made it sound like an accusation. But when it was first stated, it did not sound like an accusation, but rather a simple statement of fact. (Background information, if you will.) It's not clear to me that whoever wrote it ever considered that it might be taken as an accusation.

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        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

          The bold needs further explanation in context. In the references I read they referred to the ability of previously being able to detect and tract earlier balloons. They have improved the technology.

          Physically this type of balloon does not have the ability to target a path over specific military cites. It can maneuver slightly only that is the factual nature of balloons. In this case it follows the jet stream. The satellites do a much better job, everybody has many them, and they can read the numbers on airplanes and they have multiple frequencies, and that is how spy intelligence work.

          It is fact that Bidden followed the advice of his military staff. As far as I know they detected them over the Aleutian Islands.

          For your information.

          Source: https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/politics/military-intelligence-report-china-balloon-trump/index.html


          VanHerck added that the intelligence community after the fact was able to gather intelligence “from additional means that made us aware of those balloons that were previously approaching North America or transited North America.”

          White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan also said on Monday that past surveillance balloons were discovered at the beginning of the Biden administration because Biden directed the intelligence community “to increase both our vigilance and the assets that we were deploying to be able to detect Chinese efforts to spy against the United States.”

          “Because the intelligence community made this a priority at the direction of President Biden, we enhanced our surveillance of our territorial airspace, we enhanced our capacity to be able to detect things that the Trump administration was unable to detect,” Sullivan said.

          “And were also able to go back and look at the historical patterns. And that led us to come to understand that during the Trump administration, as you said, there were multiple instances where the surveillance balloons traversed American airspace and American territory,” he added.

          © Copyright Original Source

          I got beat up a couple pages back for making the same inquiries.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Balloons are not capable of 'being actively directed to fly over sensitive targets a continent away.'

            How do you propose one can direct such balloons? Reference please.

            You did not respond to the post.
            First, let go of your silly notion that the spy balloon was no more advanced than something that might have flown during World War II. That giant array hanging from it almost certainly contained highly advanced technology.

            Second, balloons can be controlled in two ways: 1) Change altitude to take advantage of different winds; and 2) Propellers or some other type of engine to change its direction. According to numerous reports, the Chinese balloon could do both, meaning that it was highly maneuverable and could go wherever the Chinese government wanted it to go, and it remained fully under their control even after the US military had supposedly disabled it.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Biden followed the advice if the military not to shoot down the balloon over land. The military deterrmined that the balloon did not represent an intelligence threat to US military bases and facilities, and yes, disabled the electronics of the craft.

              This type of balloon transported device is terribly low tech. Everyone has sophisticated satellites including the Chinese far more capable than anything transported on a balloon. Calling it a 'spy balloon' is clearly hyperbole. I can get more information on the whole earth through google maps then this WW II technology. .
              Apparently the military didn't even bother to inform old Joe about it for three days after it was first discovered. Why was that? Didn't they think that such a blatant violation of our sovereign territory by a less-than-friendly country was important enough to inform the POTUS?

              Then, when they finally deigned to tell him about it, Biden ordered it shot down. The Pentagon apparently countermanded the President's order.

              They put his fragility as a leader up on the world stage for all to see. That alone made the flight of the balloon well worth China's effort. They will be using our inaction as propaganda -- look, America can't even defend their airspace. Do you really think they'll help you? Remember Afghanistan. Now, don't you think that it would be smart to ally with us while you still can?

              A number of the islands that we liberated in the Pacific during WW2 will no longer allow our naval vessels to dock there -- but will allow Chinese vessels to dock there now. These actions (or inactions) will only increase this trend.

              As for your comment regarding Google maps... this was all about monitoring communications and the like. Not about taking pictures.

              And the bit from the Pentagon about us disabling the balloon's ability to transmit by using an EMP weapon or something similar. This is questionable given that the balloon was still receiving and responding to signals causing it to change directions and altitudes. During the Cold War Russian jets used vacuum tubes which wouldn't be effected by EMPs. Something that cheap and easy could have also been used here.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                yeah.

                but then they have to explain why it wasn't shot down this time. Their "it was too dangerous because of population" excuse will be shown for the lie that it is.

                Biden just gave a news conference where he is now saying, "It was always the plan to shoot down the balloon as soon as it was appropriate. It was the military's call to not shoot it down over land"
                Particularly while it was over Montana. You'd be hard pressed to find another area in the U.S. more suited for crashing something like this. Instead we waited until it crossed the country and shot it down over the ocean where recovery of it will be much more difficult

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  I don't believe it really did pose "zero threat". Clearly the Chinese government did not fly it over the US with our best interests in mind. There's lots of uninhabited land in the mid-West, and our military had plenty of time to figure out the best way to shoot it down while presenting the least risk to the public. Ideally, we should have taken it out before it even got to Alaska, but it is inconceivable that the second best option was to allow the balloon to complete its mission before shooting it down.
                  Apparently it was discovered when it was over the Aleutians so shooting it down before that point was not an option.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

                    Weren't they still controlling where to floated over it? Wouldn't that take electronics?
                    There was no mention of it actually using that technology, especially after it was "discovered" - they just said it appeared that it had that technology. From what I can tell it was just drifting with the jet stream, which it would do if the electronics were fried.

                    I am at least hoping the military had enough sense to do something like that instead of letting it just continue to gather info.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      Balloons are not capable of 'being actively directed to fly over sensitive targets a continent away.'

                      How do you propose one can direct such balloons? Reference please.

                      You did not respond to the post.
                      This was effectively a drone held aloft by a balloon. It would have no trouble being commanded from a continent away after all we can issue commands to crafts on Mars or at the furthest reaches of our solar system.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                        There was no mention of it actually using that technology, especially after it was "discovered" - they just said it appeared that it had that technology. From what I can tell it was just drifting with the jet stream, which it would do if the electronics were fried.

                        I am at least hoping the military had enough sense to do something like that instead of letting it just continue to gather info.
                        It seemed to just follow the jet stream mostly:

                        static-winter-jet-stream-example-1.jpg

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Apparently it was discovered when it was over the Aleutians so shooting it down before that point was not an option.
                          As soon as it was spotted over the islands, they could have scrambled fighters from Elmendorf and had it shot down within the hour before it even reached the Alaskan mainland.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            There was no mention of it actually using that technology, especially after it was "discovered" - they just said it appeared that it had that technology. From what I can tell it was just drifting with the jet stream, which it would do if the electronics were fried.

                            I am at least hoping the military had enough sense to do something like that instead of letting it just continue to gather info.
                            Given it managed to change altitude several times the idea it's electronics got fried appears to be overstated.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              This was effectively a drone held aloft by a balloon. It would have no trouble being commanded from a continent away after all we can issue commands to crafts on Mars or at the furthest reaches of our solar system.
                              There is speculation that it could have also served as a base for individual drones to do even lower level reconnaissance.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment



                              • I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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