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CRT isn't in schools.

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  • #61
    It's probably worth me going through Seer's quoted list of 11 ideas of 'CRT' and noting whether university-level CRT would agree, and whether I would personally agree and whether I think the ideas should be/could be taught in schools.


    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Race essentialism: Critical race theory reduces individuals to the quasi-metaphysical categories of “Blackness” and “Whiteness,” then loads those categories with value connotations—positive traits are attributed to “Blackness” and negative traits are attributed to “Whiteness.” Although some critical race theorists formally reject race essentialism, functionally, they often use these categories as malicious labels that erase individual identities.
    University CRT: Teaches the opposite of this. It teaches that "race is.. a socially constructed category" and "not biologically grounded and natural" (wiki).
    Starlight: I think racial categories are both biological and socially constructed. I generally reject attributing positive or negative traits to particular races. To the extent any school could be shown to be teaching a race was good or bad I would strongly oppose that.

    All whites are racist: Critical race theorists argue explicitly that “all white people are racist” and perpetuate systems of white supremacy and systemic racism.
    University CRT: Does not teach this
    Starlight: Disagree strongly with this, and would object to it being taught.

    America is a fundamentally racist nation: Critical race theorists argue that America was founded on racism, slavery, and white supremacy—and remains a fundamentally racist nation to this day.
    University CRT: Partially teaches this - it studies topics of how racial inequalities affect America in the present day, and how America's history of slavery impacts the present.
    Starlight: Partially agree with this. Slavery hugely impacted the early US, with the civil war, etc. Jim Crow, racist housing laws, and the fight for black civil rights have hugely impacted the US. People from other countries who visit the US in the present day are often shocked by continuing racial inequalities and the level of racism they observe. Obviously schools need to cover in some way the civil war, and the racial controversies of US history.

    Collective guilt: Critical race theory claims that individuals categorized as “White” are inherently responsible for injustice and oppression committed by white populations in the past. This concept is sometimes framed as “white guilt,” “white shame,” and “white complicity,” which are psychological manifestations of collective guilt.
    University CRT: Does not teach this.
    Starlight: No. See my comment to Machinist. I would not support any schools teaching this.

    Opposition to equality under the law: Critical race theorists explicitly reject the principle of equality under the law, including the Fourteenth Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1964. They argue that legal equality, nondiscrimination, and colorblindness are mere “camouflages” (Tate, 1997) used to uphold white supremacist structures.
    University CRT: Yes. As I explained in a post above to CP, one of the major tenets of university CRT is to look at how colorblind laws can have unintentional outcomes that hurt some racial groups. CRT argues you need to study these cases carefully and bear them in mind when formulating laws, and that for this reason it's not enough to just have colorblind laws and more thoughtfulness is required.
    Starlight: I agree with university CRT here. This seems to me to be a too-advanced topic for a school to ever cover. I would not expect to see this content in schools as a result.

    Opposition to meritocracy: Critical race theorists oppose meritocracy, especially standardized testing and competitive admissions in the education system. They claim that meritocracy is a mechanism to uphold racist structures and is derived from “racism, nativism, and eugenics” (Au, 2013).
    This one is a bit complicated.

    University CRT: Varies. Makes a number of points. Firstly, that our society is not actually meritocratic in the present day for a number of reasons. e.g if not everyone starts from the same starting-line due to social and racial inequalities, are the winners actually meritocratic? No. e.g. if the social systems in place affect some racial groups more negatively or positive than others, are the outcomes actually meritocratic or are the scales weighted? As a result, the idea that society is currently meritocratic when it isn't, is a potentially dangerous idea that can affect a number of groups in negative way, and perpetuate bad social systems, morally defending them as 'meritocratic' when they aren't meritocratic. CRT scholars seem to disagree among themselves about whether a truly meritocratic system would be actually desirable. But their main concern is that current claims of meritocracy are often used to falsely defend a non-meritocratic system.

    Starlight: I would generally tend to agree with university CRT on this. People are often inclined to assume that the current system is more meritocratic than it actually is, especially those who have achieved success in the current system who biasedly want to pat themselves on the back for their success. This cartoon explains well the problem, and I would encourage everyone here to read it and think about it. However as someone who has personally succeed very well in the current system (A+ grades, high-paying scientist job etc) I am of course inclined to saying it's because I'm awesome. But I do try to remember that I had a great childhood, supportive parents, a good education etc, and that a lot of other people didn't have the same support network and opportunities afforded to me, so a lot of people who could have likewise succeeded weren't able to due to social factors and inequalities. What do I think about schools covering this, and how meritocratic do I think schools should be during schooling? I'm not sure I have strong opinions. I think it's difficult for schools to teach anything much about this because it's conceptually-hard content that I don't imagine they would want to try to cover. Obviously schools are always going to have some tests of ability, so you're always going to have some sort of grading system and never actually going to have a "everyone passes everything we don't even need any exams".

    I'll cover the rest of Seer's quoted points in another post.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I heard a comment recently that the particular people who quote that statement most often in the present day are the same people who MLK would have most disagreed with given what else he said.
      Ah, yes, yet another unknown person saying something they know nothing about. I don't think you realize how often you pull this "I heard a comment..." crap.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #63
        Comments on the rest of Seer's 'CRT' list, as to whether a university CRT course would teach any such thing, and whether I would agree or not with the point being made and whether schools should teach it IMO.

        Originally posted by Seer
        Active racial discrimination: Critical race theorists believe that the state must actively discriminate against racial groups that are deemed “privileged,” meaning whites and sometimes Asians. Critical race theorists support policies such as racial quotas, race-based benefits, and race-based redistribution of wealth.
        University CRT: Varies, leaning yes. University CRT focuses on looking carefully at the outcomes of policies and observing that intended 'neutral' policies can actually have racial outcomes. As a result, academic CRT theorist advocate strongly for thinking hard about those racial outcomes and potential racial outcomes when formulating laws. Different theorists will how different views about whether outcomes ought to be neutral or whether they ought to be favorable to historically oppressed groups in order to 'fairly' right historical biases against previously oppressed groups. One the whole the theorists would probably agree that the laws themselves need not be formulated in race-neutral ways and are allowed to be formulated race-non-neutrally, even if the goal is race-neutral outcomes.

        Starlight: I don't have any opposition to helping needy groups. Part of having compassion for the oppressed and downtrodden is identifying oppressed and downtrodden groups and helping them. Out of compassion I would like to see everyone lifted up and given a chance to succeed at life. I don't think anyone in America would argue against the observation that black racial groups have a lot of negative stats around crime, poverty, education, health etc in present day America. Therefore I support efforts to help that group. What do I think, if anything, schools should or shouldn't teach regarding this? Not sure. I don't mind if schools teach that Blacks in the US have it hard currently, cos they do seem to.

        Restriction of free speech: Critical race theorists believe that the First Amendment serves to advance the interests of white supremacy and systemic racism, under the guise of freedom of speech. They argue that the government should restrict freedom of speech that is “racist” or “hateful.”
        University CRT: I think a lot of CRT academics would be in favor of hate-speech limitations to limit active racism. This does potentially conflict with the First Amendment.

        Starlight: I generally agree with hate-speech limitations. I believe most Western countries have adopted them in some form or another. In schools, I think it is good to teach kids not to be hateful towards other people and good to keep a lid on bullying. I would note that the anti-CRT crusaders often seem to fall afoul of the first amendment when they try and restrict what can be said in schools.

        Abolition of whiteness: Critical race theorists believe that society should work to “abolish the white race.” Although they often insist that this means dismantling cultural constructions associated with white identity, this language often adopts tropes associated with race eliminationism.
        University CRT: No. Doesn't teach this.

        Starlight: No. Don't agree in the slightest. The quotes that Seer's list gives about this are all from the same person who was white and who argued that race was a social construct, so any arguments he made to abolish whiteness were about abolishing the social construct of whiteness, not genocide of his own race. As I noted above, I only partially subscribe to the view that race is a social construct, so don't hold the foundations necessary to hold this viewpoint. Obviously schools should not teach such a viewpoint, and I would oppose them doing so.

        Neo-segregation: Critical race theorists endorse a new form of racial segregation—often called “racial affinity groups” or “racial caucuses”—with separate meetings, facilities, living quarters, and training programs for whites and racial minorities. The assumption is that whites must “do the work” to address their “internalized racial superiority” and racial minorities must be protected from invasive “whiteness.”
        University CRT: No, this is not a common or major teaching.

        Starlight: I don't see a problem with people sometimes talking about their racial concepts in racial groups, but I would not want it to be a common thing as it sounds quite divisive. In schooling I am not opposed to this being done once or twice as an exercise for the kids to think and learn about the concepts of race, but I certainly would not want it to be a common thing or done repeatedly.

        Anti-capitalism and forced redistribution of property
        University CRT: No. This is not a component of university level CRT.

        Starlight: I see myself as being about half-way between socialist and capitalist, so of course on a board full of capitalists like this one all my arguments are against that side, but on a board full of socialists I'd be the one making all the anti-socialist and pro-capitalist arguments. I would object to schools indoctrinating students into a mindset of capitalism being great or of capitalism being awful. I don't mind schools touching on capitalism and socialism, so long as they keep it to some fairly basic points.


        In summary, of the 11 'CRT' points in Seer's list, I think only 5 of them are partially or wholly actually what academics call CRT, and the other 6 are not.

        Of the 11 points, 6 and 1/2 or so I would personally agree with; 4 and a 1/2 of which I would be okay with seeing taught in schools (and so the remaining 6 and 1/2 of the 11 I would not want to see taught in schools / would not expect to be taught in schools).

        As such when the OP asserts that 'CRT is being taught' my response is: . Unless there is clarity on what is being taught, I cannot assess whether I support or oppose it, nor whether I agree or disagree with it. Getting someone on video saying "I think I'm teaching CRT in schools" is meaningless because it doesn't tell me what that person is teaching so I don't know whether I support them or oppose them.
        Last edited by Starlight; 02-01-2023, 10:02 PM.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
          Out of curiosity, I wonder how Starlight would feel if New Zealand schools taught their own brand of CRT, with whites being inherently racist and oppressive and Maoris deserving of special treatment.
          As I noted in my comments above, CRT doesn't teach that. It is indeed controversial at the moment exactly how much New Zealand schools should cover what history there was of Maori oppression (there wasn't as much of that as the US, but there was some).

          Especially to the tune of expensive reparations.
          You're about 50 years of expensive reparations too late with that comment.

          At least it would be more fitting there since the Maoris in NZ are definitely descendants of the original inhabitants
          The Maori only beat the Europeans here by a few hundred years. There was no history of multi-thousand year original inhabitants the way there was in the US.

          unlike the US where many of African descent have migrated here in the 1.5 centuries since slavery was abolished.
          Indeed. Interestingly the biggest racial wealth gap in the US didn't result from slavery, but resulted from federal government laws in the 20th century regarding making subsidized housing in the suburbs available to whites. Whites got subsidized suburban housing which subsequently went way up in value, and blacks were excluded from that. Since most people's assets are mostly the value of their own homes, this has had a much bigger effect on the racial wealth gap than anything before it. And this was something that happened in the lifetimes of many people living, so it is not an injustice in the deep historical past that no one living is directly affected by the way slavery is, and it has led to many questionable downstream effects (e.g. social segregation of blacks tending to live in downtown areas and whites tending to live in suburbs etc). So I think to the extent some cities are looking at reparations, they would be better to look at things like this where some people currently living got race-based subsidies and others didn't and act to fix that wrong, rather than looking to the distant past of slavery, which, as you say, doesn't apply to a lot of Black Americans.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            It's probably worth me going through Seer's quoted list of 11 ideas of 'CRT' and noting whether university-level CRT would agree, and whether I would personally agree and whether I think the ideas should be/could be taught in schools.

            .
            Like I said CRT is an umbrella term, really short hand for a number of ideas that Derrick Bell originally did not represent. But his ideas have morphed and taken on a life of their own. Whether you agree with with them all our not it is clear that many are divisive, racist and are being taught in schools.

            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              As I noted in my comments above, CRT doesn't teach that. It is indeed controversial at the moment exactly how much New Zealand schools should cover what history there was of Maori oppression (there wasn't as much of that as the US, but there was some).

              You're about 50 years of expensive reparations too late with that comment.
              Got a link? Or a name of the program?

              The Maori only beat the Europeans here by a few hundred years. There was no history of multi-thousand year original inhabitants the way there was in the US.
              Well, that's hardly important. By that logic, I can steal my neighbor's house with less guilt if he just bought it, as opposed to him owning it for 20 years.

              Indeed. Interestingly the biggest racial wealth gap in the US didn't result from slavery, but resulted from federal government laws in the 20th century regarding making subsidized housing in the suburbs available to whites. Whites got subsidized suburban housing which subsequently went way up in value, and blacks were excluded from that. Since most people's assets are mostly the value of their own homes, this has had a much bigger effect on the racial wealth gap than anything before it. And this was something that happened in the lifetimes of many people living, so it is not an injustice in the deep historical past that no one living is directly affected by the way slavery is, and it has led to many questionable downstream effects (e.g. social segregation of blacks tending to live in downtown areas and whites tending to live in suburbs etc). So I think to the extent some cities are looking at reparations, they would be better to look at things like this where some people currently living got race-based subsidies and others didn't and act to fix that wrong, rather than looking to the distant past of slavery, which, as you say, doesn't apply to a lot of Black Americans.
              The government didn't subsidize any of the houses I've owned. I've been cheated! I want reparations!

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post

                Like I said CRT is an umbrella term, really short hand for a number of ideas that Derrick Bell originally did not represent. But his ideas have morphed and taken on a life of their own. Whether you agree with with them all our not it is clear that many are divisive, racist and are being taught in schools.
                I think it's becoming apparent that Starlight is desperately trying to sound relevant on a topic about which he knows precious little.

                Bottom line --- American schools are FAILING at teaching the core subjects. They are not competent to play school psychologists.
                They really need to focus on teaching the basics, not meddling in the personal lives of students.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                  Got a link? Or a name of the program?
                  Treaty settlements. Government essential decided the best way of doing reparations was to choose one of the historical early agreements between some of the colonists and some of the natives, and try and treat that as an indefinitely binding legal contract, breaches of which could then be used as a pretext for government compensation to the disenfranchised tribes.

                  I would say if you try and think too hard about the historical and legal arguments for doing it, that they're pretty flimsy and have a tendency to fall apart on close inspection. However those racial groups have suboptimal socioeconomic outcomes in the present, and funneling money to poor and needy people isn't something I'm against, so I tolerate it even if I wince at the use of dodgy historical reparations as a pretext for helping needy people in the present.
                  Last edited by Starlight; 02-02-2023, 07:27 AM.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    The culture and history of New Zealand compared to the US is like comparing apples to nuclear bombs.

                    You really have no idea what's going on in American education. Yeah, I know, you read stuff that somebody else said.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                      I'm not sure what you are getting at. The oppression of Black people in this country began with slavery and continues to this day in the form of institutionalized or systemic racism. Black people - as a group, statistically - in this country are less educated, poorer, and have less opportunity because of the that history of oppression and its legacy. That is the 'cause' of the disparity in the multitudinous forms it takes. Trying to fix that is complex and often frustrating, because as a consequence of that history there are, in fact, cultural and environmental factors that are part of both the white and the black communities that help propagate that inequity generation to generation without the need for any overt influence. But that does not change the fact that its cause is hundreds of years of slavery, followed by over 100 years of oppression after slavery was abolished. And it does not change the fact that actions must be taken by those with the power, and the wealth to allow for those without the power and without the wealth to have equal access to it. And that doesn't just mean removing the overt barriers like seperate but equal or granting the right to vote. You still have to change the environment that propagates the condition.
                      You mention education but even many blacks complain about the number of other blacks who say that getting an education is "acting white." Or speaking proper English is "acting white."

                      Further, who is it that is in charge of the school systems where most blacks attend school and where the valedictorians typically have to take a bunch of remedial classes before they can even start college?

                      I'll never forget how, while talking with the owner of an auto detail business who was renting the detached garage behind the house the business I was running was located in, and mentioning things like zoning ordinances, getting a business license etc., how he said "you white boys know all this stuff."

                      I was floored. These were the minimal basics.

                      It turned out he was from Chicago where his teachers assumed nobody would ever own their own business so such things were simply ignored. You were going to be an hourly worker, a cop or, if you wanted to succeed, a politician. Being a businessman wasn't even on the radar.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        This is all very much irrelevant, and in fact (without any sort of accusation of you personally) is the sort of argument that white supremacists use to deny the problem, or divert attention from it.
                        It was directly relevant to something Machinist said.

                        You might want to look at the context before leaping in with both feet next time.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post


                          . Whereas the right seems to think CRT makes claims like "whites are inherently bad", which:
                          When it declares that all whites, even those who aren't racist, are still racist, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it, I would say that it most definitely teaches that "whites are inherently bad."

                          But go ahead. Keep pontificating on things you don't know anything about. It's what we've come to expect.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            When it declares that all whites, even those who aren't racist, are still racist, and there's pretty much nothing you can do about it, I would say that it most definitely teaches that "whites are inherently bad."
                            If you know absolutely zero about CRT, maybe don't post in this thread? Or were you trying out for the "how to be 100% wrong in a single post" Olympics?

                            But go ahead. Keep pontificating on things you don't know anything about. It's what we've come to expect.
                            The projection is incredible.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Perhaps this will help some of the conservatives here get out of their bubbles on the subject. Here is a run-of-the-mill US democratic commentator talking about his view of CRT in a video today (warning: Some vulgar language):



                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                Perhaps this will help some of the conservatives here get out of their bubbles on the subject. Here is a run-of-the-mill US democratic commentator talking about his view of CRT in a video today (warning: Some vulgar language):


                                Why do you keep coming up with very selective "somebody said something" crap, when we know what our actual situations in our own public schools are?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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