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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    This seems so incredibly out of touch with reality --- can you even IMAGINE a situation were 5 white cops beat up a black guy, and the media does not explode in constant reporting, "mostly peaceful" protests breaking out all over the place, and the press all over the trial demanding 'justice'?
    5 - probably not, assuming it made the media. But as we have seen over and over, these things don't always make the media, and they don't always involve a large number of police. I think you are correct though that a similar video - today - with 5 white cops in it would not be able to be excused. The question would be would they get any lighter indictment than these policemen did. We've seen it before. But not as much recently perhaps with the hightened attention to it ... brought into play by .... BLM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      False on both counts... Or ask yourself why we didn't see the kind of murder rate in poor back communities in the 40s, 50s and early 60s that we see now. When injustice was much worse?
      There are many reasons seer, not the least of which was Nixon's war on drugs which decimated black families. The current situation is the consequence of many years of racism and racially motivated and biased policies operating over a long period of time. What it is NOT is 'all the black community's fault' - which is typically the bend you put on these discussions. But to sort it out would require a very long and honest discussion of very broad set of facts- something that simply never happens here.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        5 - probably not, assuming it made the media.
        Do you honestly doubt this wouldn't be a George Floyd moment and riots all over again?

        But as we have seen over and over, these things don't always make the media, and they don't always involve a large number of police. I think you are correct though that a similar video - today - with 5 white cops in it would not be able to be excused. The question would be would they get any lighter indictment than these policemen did. We've seen it before. But not as much recently perhaps with the hightened attention to it ... brought into play by .... BLM.
        Come on, Jim --- you can't see the potential for rioting and looting if 5 white cops had done this, and were given "lighter indictment" (whatever that is) in a courtroom?

        Do you honestly believe this (scenario of 5 white cops brutally beating a black man) wouldn't be wall to wall on every TV channel?

        And where, exactly, have we "seen it before"?


        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          There are many reasons seer, not the least of which was Nixon's war on drugs which decimated black families. The current situation is the consequence of many years of racism and racially motivated and biased policies operating over a long period of time. What it is NOT is 'all the black community's fault' - which is typically the bend you put on these discussions. But to sort it out would require a very long and honest discussion of very broad set of facts- something that simply never happens here.
          The war on drugs was not a racist policy, but the was 50 years ago! And yes the black community does bear a good deal of responsibility for this. Never has been less racism in this country yet things are getting no better in that community, arguably it is getting worse.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Assuming that they are convicted and handed very long sentences, will BLM complain that they were only sentenced so heavily because of their race?
            BLM doesn't give a flying flip when blacks are killed by other blacks. They are some of the most corrupt and biggest hypocrites you'll find anywhere, but it still amazes me the people that buy into their con game.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              Do you honestly doubt this wouldn't be a George Floyd moment and riots all over again?



              Come on, Jim --- you can't see the potential for rioting and looting if 5 white cops had done this, and were given "lighter indictment" (whatever that is) in a courtroom?

              Do you honestly believe this (scenario of 5 white cops brutally beating a black man) wouldn't be wall to wall on every TV channel?

              And where, exactly, have we "seen it before"?

              Do you really believe that white policeman would not be given more leeway - if possible - than black policemen charged with a similar crime?

              In many communities, the only reason they would not in a case like this involving white policemen is the current atmosphere - created by the protests you tend to be so much against and the recent history of abuse. Do you forget how the Brunswick police tried to protect one of their own who chased and eventually gunned down a young black man running in a neighborhood because they 'suspected' him of entering a house under construction?

              That the brutality against the black community tends to be excused and tolerated is a fact. One that has generated a great deal of anger. And that anger has resulted in protests that are in fact shaping and pushing back against that tendency to abuse the black community. It's not the best way to solve the problem ... but given the unwillingness of so many in police and the white community to acknowledge or do anything about the problem, it may well have been one of the few mechanisms that would actually produce results. That is, unfortunately, a harsh reality when it comes to racism in America.
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-28-2023, 01:50 PM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                BLM doesn't give a flying flip when blacks are killed by other blacks. They are some of the most corrupt and biggest hypocrites you'll find anywhere, but it still amazes me the people that buy into their con game.
                It certainly seems that way, but they still need excuses to stay "relevant."
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  The war on drugs was not a racist policy, but the was 50 years ago! And yes the black community does bear a good deal of responsibility for this. Never has been less racism in this country yet things are getting no better in that community, arguably it is getting worse.
                  from: 1971: Nixon's War on Drugs — The Baltimore Story

                  Source: above

                  In an interview for the book Smoke and mirrors: The war on drugs and the politics of failure, Dan Baum interviewed John Ehrlichman, Nixon’s Domestic Affairs Advisor and White House Counsel. During the interview, Ehrlichman revealed the true motivations behind Nixon’s war on drugs strategy:

                  The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and [B]lack people. You understand what I’m saying? [B]We knew we couldn’t make it illegal to be either against the war or [B]lack, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did (as cited in Baum, 2016, Par. 2).



                  Baum continued,
                  Nixon’s invention of the war on drugs as a political tool was cynical, but every president since—Democrat and Republican alike—has found it equally useful for one reason or another. Meanwhile, the growing cost of the drug war is now impossible to ignore…one of every eight [B]lack men has been disenfranchised because of a felony conviction. (2016, Par. 4)

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Carter pushed back on it in the mid seventies, but it was continued under Reagan and Bush and Clinton(?). It has been being dialed back since around 2010(under Obama), an example being the fair sentencing act which reduced the discrepancy in sentencing for crack (typically used in black communities) and cocaine (typically used in white communities)

                  War on Drugs - Timeline in America, Definition & Facts - HISTORY
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-28-2023, 01:49 PM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Do you really believe that white policeman would not be given more leeway - if possible - than black policemen charged with a similar crime?
                    In today's culture? One would have to be stark raving mad to believe that white police would be given "more leeway". That's just downright preposterous.

                    In many communities, the only reason they would not in a case like this involving white policemen is the current atmosphere - created by the protests you tend to be so much against and the recent history of abuse.
                    You must be getting emotional again, cause you're absolutely making stuff up --- I have always been very clear that I am for peaceful protests, but not ones where rioting, looting, and firebombing take place.

                    Do you forget how the Brunswick police tried to protect one of their own who chased and eventually gunned down a young black man running in a neighborhood because they 'suspected' him of entering a house under construction?
                    I can't forget what I never knew - nor is it relevant to a situation like this in the culture climate we have. I have clearly been FOR police reform, and I have vigorously opposed police unions who, like teachers unions protect bad teachers, defend and protect bad cops.

                    That the brutality against the black community tends to be excused and tolerated is a fact. One that has generated a great deal of anger. And that anger has resulted in protests that are in fact shaping and pushing back against that tendency to abuse the black community.
                    Ah, more attempts by the left to justify lawlessness.

                    It's not the best way to solve the problem ...
                    It's not ANY way to solve the problem.

                    but given the unwillingness of so many in police and the white community to acknowledge or do anything about the problem, it may well have been one of the few mechanisms that would actually produce results. That is, unfortunately, a harsh reality when it comes to racism in America.
                    Wow, you have totally bought into the extreme left agenda.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      The war on drugs was not a racist policy, but the was 50 years ago! And yes the black community does bear a good deal of responsibility for this. Never has been less racism in this country yet things are getting no better in that community, arguably it is getting worse.
                      As much as I dislike people making everything about racism, sorry but the war on drugs has long been a particularly racist policy. From all the way back when cannabis obtained the now-common name Marijuana because that was the name that immigrants/mexican-americans used.

                      And then there's this:
                      The Crack vs. Heroin Project found that racial disparities rooted in the 1980s campaign against crack cocaine still persist today despite more compassionate rhetoric about the opioid crisis.

                      In a yearlong investigation, the Asbury Park Press and the USA TODAY NETWORK examined hundreds of thousands of arrest records and federal drug convictions nationwide over the past 30 years. Reporters found that Black people are arrested far more frequently and punished more severely than white people for drug crimes, even though drug use within the two racial groups is roughly the same.
                      The stigma was so wrong for African Americans. They couldn’t get the help they needed because everybody looked at them as ‘less than.’

                      Policymakers responded with tough-on-crime laws, including the bipartisan Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1986, which featured a 100-to-1 powder cocaine-to-crack disparity and dedicated three-quarters of $1.7 billion in federal funds to law enforcement and incarceration. In 1988, Congress provided hundreds of millions more for police and prisons, and made crack the only drug for which simple possession was a federal crime.

                      Fifteen states followed suit and enacted more severe penalties for crack offenses, with quantity disparities between powder cocaine and crack ranging from 2-to-1 in California to 100-to-1 in Iowa and North Dakota. To deter drug crime, Delaware discussed bringing back the whipping post and North Carolina officials wanted to revive the use of chain gangs.
                      “The racial implications of the 1986 law were devastating,” said Eric E. Sterling, then legal counsel to the House of Representative’s Subcommittee on Crime, who helped write the 1986 bill.

                      From 1991 to 2001, nine times as many Black people as white people went to federal prison for crack offenses, the Network found. Black people’s sentences for crack were double that for white crack offenders in federal court during that period: 148 months compared to 84 months.

                      Despite the more compassionate view of drug addiction today, racial inequities in drug arrests and sentencings persist.


                      When white people started getting addicted and dying from opioids, the narrative shifted. Those abusing heroin and prescription painkillers were routinely depicted in the media as sympathetic victims, Helena Hansen, an associate professor in the Department of Psychiatry at New York University, told the Network.

                      Public policy also shifted: three-quarters of the $7.4 billion Congress allotted in 2018 to fight the opioid epidemic went to research, treatment, and prevention rather than police and prisons.

                      But racial disparities persist. Ms. Hansen observed:
                      When the articles mentioned Black and Latino opioid users, it was a crime report, their criminal history, their court appearances were described, their personal history was not described. There was not a humanizing biography of the people in the story.

                      In 2016, Black people were still being arrested at a rate more than twice that of white people for cocaine, the Network found. Black people in 21 states were arrested at a rate at least three times higher than white people for narcotics and cocaine offenses combined in 2016.

                      Even though heroin and prescription opioids are more deadly, the Network found there were nearly four times more arrests for cocaine than opioid drugs in 2016. Far more Black people (85,640) were arrested for cocaine than white people were arrested for heroin and other opioids (66,120) that year.

                      Policymakers have done little to address the racially discriminatory impact of the war on drugs. Congress reduced the disparity between powder cocaine and crack from 100 to 1 to 18 to 1 in 2010, but experts say that ratio has no basis in science and the Network found it perpetuates the double standard for people convicted of crack offenses in the federal court system, who are overwhelmingly Black.

                      Meanwhile, people with convictions for nonviolent drug offenses and their families continue to suffer the consequences of an unfair system. At the federal level, people with drug offenses have been barred from receiving public assistance and housing benefits, federal student aid, and even veteran benefits. As the Network reports, drug convictions often prevent people from getting steady jobs, voting in elections, and living in desirable housing.




                      https://eji.org/news/racial-double-s...ersists-today/
                      "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
                      -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


                      "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                      - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        In today's culture? One would have to be stark raving mad to believe that white police would be given "more leeway". That's just downright preposterous.



                        ... I have always been very clear that I am for peaceful protests, but not ones where rioting, looting, and firebombing take place.
                        In this case you have gone along with the narrative that the majority of the protests were violent, when in fact it is only a small minority of them that were violent. Likewise, you have never championed the cause of the protests themselves, the abuse of Black people in black neighborhoods by some police, far beyond what any white person typically encounters or is accustomed to. I don't believe I've ever seen you admit the disparity exists.


                        I can't forget what I never knew -
                        It was quite clear that they did so. Perhaps it wasn't reported in the websites you used for information about the killing.

                        nor is it relevant to a situation like this in the culture climate we have. I have clearly been FOR police reform, and I have vigorously opposed police unions who, like teachers unions protect bad teachers, defend and protect bad cops.
                        I'm not saying you were anything other than what you say above. I am saying that it is a common thing for these sorts of events to get swept under the rug, and the only reason it isn't happening as much now is the publicity and the widespread nature of the protests.


                        Ah, more attempts by the left to justify lawlessness.
                        No attempt to justify violence. 'lawlessness' was used as justification to oppose the civil rights movement. Unfortunately, 'lawlessness' in certain forms (e.g. refusing to sit in the back of the bus, or to use the colored bathrooms) is a necessary thing in a world where the laws support racism. As John Lewis used to say:

                        'Get in good trouble, necessary trouble'





                        It's not ANY way to solve the problem.
                        Unfortunately, it can and does work. But usually it takes a long period of oppression for people to be pushed to the point they see it as their only alternative. The problem then is those that refuse to listen to anything BUT violence, or 'lawlessness'. You cannot oppress a people forever and avoid violence.

                        So - we know these things are wrong. The disparities of justice. But we are responsible for not giving place to the voices of those that want to continue supporting oppressive policies and customs. Racism is endemic in our culture, and many white people just don't even know they are participating. The problem is many conservatives are so hateful of the 'liberals' they won't even try to understand what the realities are.


                        Wow, you have totally bought into the extreme left agenda.
                        That is a very stupid, false, and inflammatory thing to say.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-28-2023, 03:14 PM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          In this case you have gone along with the narrative that the majority of the protests were violent, when in fact it is only a small minority of them that were violent.
                          Absolutely false. You really need to stop making stuff up, Jim. NOWHERE have I indicated that I thought "the majority of the protests were violent". That's a steaming load of horsie poo.

                          Likewise, you have never championed the cause of the protests themselves, the abuse of Black people in black neighborhoods by some police, far beyond what any white person typically encounters or is accustomed to. I don't believe I've ever seen you admit the disparity exists.
                          Again, you're nuttier than Aunt Thelma --- I work nearly EVERY DAY with minorities, Jim, in my day job. You don't know squat about what I do or believe, and I have been very active in a pretty much black community ministerial group on police matters.

                          It was quite clear that they did so. Perhaps it wasn't reported in the websites you used for information about the killing.
                          I don't play social justice warrior on TWeb, Jim.

                          I'm not saying you were anything other than what you say above. I am saying that it is a common thing for these sorts of events to get swept under the rug, and the only reason it isn't happening as much now is the publicity and the widespread nature of the protests.
                          You keep saying stupid things about what you think I believe. And, no, that's NOT the only reason -- in our PD, it's because we, along with quite a number of other Police Departments across the nation, have joined organizations to whom we are accountable, and are audited for our actions accordingly. Nobody had to riot for us to decide to do what is right.

                          No attempt to justify violence.
                          I started to 'prophesy' you would try that.

                          'lawlessness' was used as justification to oppose the civil rights movement.
                          NON-VIOLENGT civil disobedience is hardly "lawlessness". But, I see you're about to take liberties with that term....

                          Unfortunately, 'lawlessness' in certain forms (e.g. refusing to sit in the back of the bus, or to use the colored bathrooms) is a necessary thing in a world where the laws support racism. As John Lewis used to say:

                          'Get in good trouble, necessary trouble'
                          You HONESTLY don't grasp the major big difference between "lawlessness" and civil disobedience?
                          Perhaps, in your mind, trying to burn down a police station is equivalent to refusing to sit in the back of the bus?

                          Come on, Jim, you're smarter than that.
                          Now, you're about to disprove a statement with which you close this 'post'.

                          Unfortunately, it can and does work. The problem then is those that refuse to listen to anything BUT violence, or 'lawlessness'. You cannot oppress a people forever and avoid violence. We know these things are wrong. But we are responsible for not giving place to the voices of those that want to continue supporting oppressive policies and customs. Racism is endemic in our culture, and many white people just don't even know they are participating. The problem is many conservatives are so hateful of the 'liberals' they won't even try to understand what the realities are.
                          Straight from the social justice playbook.

                          That is a very stupid, false, and inflammatory thing to say.
                          There is far more proof of what I said than there is that classified documents were "locked" in Joe's garage, so that makes that OK.

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            This seems so incredibly out of touch with reality --- can you even IMAGINE a situation were 5 white cops beat up a black guy, and the media does not explode in constant reporting, "mostly peaceful" protests breaking out all over the place, and the press all over the trial demanding 'justice'?
                            I think yes, before George Floyd's unnecessary and heinous death. The trial and conviction of the officer changed all of that.
                            A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                            George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              Absolutely false. You really need to stop making stuff up, Jim. NOWHERE have I indicated that I thought "the majority of the protests were violent". That's a steaming load of horsie poo.
                              So - you've never mocked the protests as 'mostly peaceful'?


                              Again, you're nuttier than Aunt Thelma --- I work nearly EVERY DAY with minorities, Jim, in my day job. You don't know squat about what I do or believe, and I have been very active in a pretty much black community ministerial group on police matters.
                              On this website ... I know nothing about your personal life CP. But I know you do not champion civil rights causes here. From what I've observed, you mostly mock them.

                              ...


                              You keep saying stupid things about what you think I believe. And, no, that's NOT the only reason -- in our PD, it's because we, along with quite a number of other Police Departments across the nation, have joined organizations to whom we are accountable, and are audited for our actions accordingly. Nobody had to riot for us to decide to do what is right.
                              There is nothing in the text you repsond to here that says anything about what you believe. I think you have lost it again.


                              I started to 'prophesy' you would try that.
                              try that?


                              NON-VIOLENGT civil disobedience is hardly "lawlessness"
                              It is when it violates the law, as in eating a a whites only lunch counter. And it was in fact called that by those pushing back against the peaceful ... but often unlawful ... protests in the '60's.






                              You HONESTLY don't grasp the major big difference between "lawlessness" and civil disobedience?
                              Of course I do. But those accusing MLK and Lewis of lawless behavior didn't. They didn't accept that as OK even one little bit. And people still don't CP. People still get arrested for civil disobedience today when they are breaking the law in the process.

                              Perhaps, in your mind, trying to burn down a police station is equivalent to refusing to sit in the back of the bus?
                              No, but I'm not at all surprised that you'd make that sort of accusation even though you know full well that it is not true.


                              Come on, Jim, you're smarter than that.
                              Now, you're about to disprove a statement with which you close this 'post'.
                              Now look who is 'making stuff up'


                              Straight from the social justice playbook.
                              Not even close. I am not advocating for violence. My statement simply recognizes that violence is often the only thing that people will listen to, especially those in power. Perhaps you'd prefer certain uncomfortable truths just not be mentioned?

                              Violent protests are immoral and self-defeating in many ways, not the least of which is it turns people that otherwise might be sympathetic to your cause against you.

                              But even with MLK, it was violence that turned the tide. It's just that MLK and his followers chose to take the violence on themselves. It was the over-the-top violence of the police and others enforcing the immoral racist laws that turned public opinion against those laws and brought people around. Specifically, the violence on the Edmund Pettus bridge in Selma Al.
                              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-28-2023, 06:16 PM.
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                So - you've never mocked the protests as 'mostly peaceful'?
                                The ones with fires raging in the background? Absolutely. Have I ever mocked the truly peaceful ones? Never.

                                The rest of your post is typical leftist nonsense which really doesn't deserve much in the way of response.

                                Jim, the Republican Party is corrupt, which is why I left it many years ago, and am an Independent.
                                The Democrat Party, on the other hand, has outright sold their soul to the Devil.
                                It amazes me how much more aligned with them you become as time goes on.

                                Yeah, yeah, I know -- I'm a bully, I hate your guts, blah blah blah...
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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