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Has anyone seen this?

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  • Has anyone seen this?

    I have not seen the series, but I had a long chat with a friend in England who has seen it - the BBC is broadcasting it in weekly instalments [but it can be accessed in its entirety on the BBC's internet site].

    My friend watched all three two hour+ episodes and commented that it was in parts a very harrowing documentary series that left them emotionally drained. They compared it in that respect to a condensed version of the UK 1970s massive documentary series The World At War.

    I found an interview with Ken Burns and his two co-directors on Youtube and the series sounds very interesting [albeit clearly distressing]. I also read this review in The Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...red-by-america

    The US and the Holocaust review – unmissable Ken Burns doc reveals how Hitler was inspired by America

    You know what you are getting with a Ken Burns documentary, and The US and the Holocaust (BBC Four) is cut from the film-maker’s familiar cloth. (I say “Ken Burns” as a sort of cultural shorthand – this is co-directed by Burns and his longtime collaborators Lynn Novick and Sarah Botstein.) These films are long, detailed patchworks of archive photographs and historical footage, cut with interviews with historians and people who were there, all held together by the authoritative voice of Burns’ regular narrator Peter Coyote.

    The three-part series explores the US response to the Nazi persecution of Jews, but, at six hours long, has enough room to extend its remit to other countries’ attitudes towards immigration and refugees (the UK is not spared). The first episode, The Golden Door, is bookended by both the Statue of Liberty and Anne Frank’s family. In 1934, the Franks fled Germany and moved to Amsterdam, along with hundreds of other Jewish families. Their intention was to reach the US. Coyote recounts solemnly that they found that “most Americans did not want to let them in”.

    This paints an unflattering and complicated portrait of the US, a country consumed by the idea that it is a land of immigrants, but with a historical reality frequently at odds with its self-image. It reminds viewers of Emma Lazarus’s 1883 poem The New Colossus, fixed on a bronze plaque inside the Statue of Liberty, with its exhortation to “Give me your tired, your poor / Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free”, and contrasts that with the work of Thomas Bailey Aldrich, who wrote the virulently anti-immigration poem The Unguarded Gates in 1892: “O Liberty, white Goddess! Is it well / To leave the gates unguarded?” According to the historian Peter Hayes, one of several talking heads on hand to offer sombre analysis, exclusion is “as American as apple pie”.

    It examines several ideas that are often held as broad truths and painstakingly unpicks them. In 1933, there were nine million Jews in Europe. By 1945, at least two-thirds of them had been murdered. The notion that Americans did not know the extent of what was happening during the Holocaust is refuted, again and again. It was on the radio, in magazines, on newsreels. We hear the words of journalists, particularly Dorothy Thompson, who reported on the horrors of Nazi Germany and was expelled from the country in 1934. She interviewed Hitler in 1931, describing him as “the very prototype of the little man”. The little man held a grudge.

    There are fascinating details about the complicity of most Hollywood studios, for whom Germany was a big market. About 80 million Americans went to the movies once a week in the 30s, but when they were there they would hear nothing against the Nazis. In 1938, a poll asked Americans if they felt Jews were to blame, partly or entirely, for what was happening to them in Germany. Two-thirds of respondents said they were.

    This is a story of an increasingly hardline approach to immigration in the US in the early 20th century, which was popular among government officials and the population at large and made no exceptions for refugees. It connects the dots with astonishing precision, suggesting that Hitler found inspiration in the US – in its Jim Crow laws, in Henry Ford’s rampant antisemitism, his views printed and distributed widely, in its mass deportations repackaged as “repatriation”.

    The accounts given by historians are smart, thought-provoking and never sugar-coated or simplified, which is refreshing in an age of soundbites. But it is the memories of survivors that stick in the mind – the accounts of the Jewish children, now very old men and women, whose communities turned against them. The shock of their neighbours and friends joining Nazi parades, refusing to play with them, calling them names and smashing their windows and homes, is palpable, even now. “From one day to the next, their attitudes changed,” recalls one woman, as if still dazed. She was nine when the Nazis marched into Vienna.

    The temptation to find modern parallels is strong; there is a persistent sense that we are no longer learning from history that is not so far away. Conspiracy theories, populist thugs, isolationism, economic turmoil, unstable governments – none of this is as distant as it should be. You always leave a Burns documentary feeling battered by the volume of information. By the end of the first episode, which clocks in at more than two hours, war has not yet broken out in Europe. But this is unvarnished history that attempts to scratch away the surface myths – and it is well worth your time.


    According to my English friend the series goes right up to some recent US events [Charlottesville] and the parallels with attitudes in the 1920s and 1930s with some of those today cannot be ignored.

    Has anyone viewed it, and if so, does anyone have any comments?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    So you start a thread regarding something you've never seen but only have a second hand summary from a friend.

    This needs to be kept in mind every time you quote a book and then demand that only those who've read the entire book can remark on the quote.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      So you start a thread regarding something you've never seen but only have a second hand summary from a friend.

      This needs to be kept in mind every time you quote a book and then demand that only those who've read the entire book can remark on the quote.
      Now, having said that, it is true that the Nazis were influenced both by eugenics programs promoted by progressives here in the U.S. as well as by the reservation system that was established for Native Americans, but they gave them their own personal touch by converting them into a system of mechanized mass murder and genocide.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        So you start a thread regarding something you've never seen but only have a second hand summary from a friend.

        This needs to be kept in mind every time you quote a book and then demand that only those who've read the entire book can remark on the quote.
        Nice try. However, I acknowledged in my opening sentence that I had not seen it.

        The comments were not my own but those of a friend who has seen it, and even without seeing the documentary series, given its subject matter, it is obviously going to be distressing in parts.

        I've also caught some brief extracts on Youtube including a very short interview with Burns and Bornstein on PBS where Burns states:

        We didn't make the Holocaust happen. But the antisemitism in the United States, the racism in the United States, the xenophobia, what we did with our native population all contribute and are part of a story. And interesting, and perhaps paradoxically, by telling the story of the US and the Holocaust, not just the government, but the people it actually forced us to see and to look at and think about how we restructure the story of the Holocaust itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BRG97Vo_D4&t=2s
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #5
          If it's on the BBC, and it's not Doctor Who, then I haven't seen it.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            If it's on the BBC, and it's not Doctor Who, then I haven't seen it.
            I do not think it is being shown on BBC America, given that it is a PBS series.

            Unless you live in the UK of course. Or you use various methods to illicitly watch BBC programmes that are only available within the UK.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Now, having said that, it is true that the Nazis were influenced both by eugenics programs promoted by progressives here in the U.S. as well as by the reservation system that was established for Native Americans, but they gave them their own personal touch by converting them into a system of mechanized mass murder and genocide.
              What about the Jim Crow laws?
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                A more accurate title would be:


                Has anyone seen this hit piece on the US?
                P1) If , then I win.

                P2)

                C) I win.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  If it's on the BBC, and it's not Doctor Who, then I haven't seen it.
                  I assume you don't mean any recent Doctor Who. After Tennant, Doctor Who has been declining.
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Nice try. However, I acknowledged in my opening sentence that I had not seen it.

                    The comments were not my own but those of a friend who has seen it, and even without seeing the documentary series, given its subject matter, it is obviously going to be distressing in parts.

                    I've also caught some brief extracts on Youtube including a very short interview with Burns and Bornstein on PBS where Burns states:

                    We didn't make the Holocaust happen. But the antisemitism in the United States, the racism in the United States, the xenophobia, what we did with our native population all contribute and are part of a story. And interesting, and perhaps paradoxically, by telling the story of the US and the Holocaust, not just the government, but the people it actually forced us to see and to look at and think about how we restructure the story of the Holocaust itself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BRG97Vo_D4&t=2s
                    As I said, you started a thread regarding something you've never seen but only have a second hand summary from a friend (that you acknowledge this is not an excuse but the reason I could say this). Worse, you believe it is something unavailable to most members.

                    Yeah. Let's discuss.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                      A more accurate title would be:


                      Has anyone seen this hit piece on the US?
                      Indeed. It sounds like classic liberal historical revisionism where they try to ascribe all the evils in the world to the United States.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                        I assume you don't mean any recent Doctor Who. After Tennant, Doctor Who has been declining.
                        Word.

                        Although Capaldi did eventually start to grow on me the more I watched. As of yet, I have not seen any with the new incarnation.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          I do not think it is being shown on BBC America, given that it is a PBS series.

                          Unless you live in the UK of course. Or you use various methods to illicitly watch BBC programmes that are only available within the UK.
                          Because BBC iPlayer doesn't exist? It's also easy to pay for things in non-US dollars using a multi-currency account, obviously there will be fees to convert currencies. America is not alone in international location spoofing.
                          P1) If , then I win.

                          P2)

                          C) I win.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            According to my English friend the series goes right up to some recent US events [Charlottesville] and the parallels with attitudes in the 1920s and 1930s with some of those today cannot be ignored.

                            How about the neo-Nazi movement in your country?

                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                              I assume you don't mean any recent Doctor Who. After Tennant, Doctor Who has been declining.
                              Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi were outstanding in the role, and Stephen Moffat was a terrific show runner, but when Chris Chibnall took over as show runner and introduced Jodi Whitaker as the Doctor's female incarnation, I walked away. But now Russel T. Davies is coming back to right the sinking ship, and David Tennant and Catherine Tate will be reprising their roles as the Doctor and Donna Noble for some timey wimey adventures (it has yet to be explained how the Doctor's female incarnation regenerated into the earlier Tenth Doctor, clothes and all!), although Tennant is just a temporary stand in until Davies' pick for the next Doctor, actor Ncuti Gatwa, finishes a project he's currently working on.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment

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