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Oregon schools encouraged to conceal student's gender from parents.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

    They're the same thing. The teacher is aware the student is identifying one way at school and another at home. The parents disapprove of the way the student is identifying at school. The teacher does not proactively reveal that information.

    There's two questions at play here. 1. If you don't lie but only omit information, is that deception? 2. To what degree ought a teacher inform parents of their child's actions? In these circumstances (the opening post, the religious conversion scenario, the nickname scenario) proactively revealing this information doesn't help anyone, or in other words, no good comes of it. Therefore, I don't see the point in insisting it's important information to volunteer.

    I also think that while teachers have a responsibility to let parents know how their children are doing academically and socially, there isn't a need to report every little thing their kid does. A parent might theoretically want to know every single instance of their child doing anything even remotely negative, but nobody expects teachers to compile exhaustive, comprehensive lists of every time a student didn't pay attention or looked at their phone during class or goofed off. The point of the teacher-parent relationship is to help the student learn and grow collaboratively. So how does a teacher notifying parents of a student experimenting with a different gender identity do anything to help achieve that goal?

    Even if you think parents ought to be notified if their child identifies as trans at school against the student's wishes, how can a teacher know the difference between a student deciding definitively they are trans vs experimenting with a different gender identity but not actually trans? A teacher would be presenting false information to the parents or giving them the wrong idea, which would be worse than doing nothing.
    not mentioning something might be OK, depending on what it is. But in this case they are ACTIVELY deceiving the parents by referring to the student to the parents by their biological sex, while the child uses a different gender in school. for example, a biological girl says her gender an pronouns are male in school, but when the teacher talks to the parents they use "her/she" instead of "him/he" - that is not "omitting information" that is "deception"


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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      ....but when the teacher talks to the parents they use "her/she" instead of "him/he" - that is not "omitting information" that is "deception"
      Yep....
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

        There's not typically any reference from teachers or peers to a student's religion or restriction on their activities based on their religion. The most you might get is students self-segregating into religious student clubs. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for teachers or peers to reference a student's gender or for students to be divided by gender. Altering these references and restrictions based on identity would be considered affirmation.

        A teacher having a discussion with a student about why they identify the way they do or how they should identify would be the same as a discussion about why they believe their religion or what religion they should believe, I consider both inappropriate . Do you not consider affirmation markedly different from these sorts of discussions?
        The bolded would be analogous to evangelism, and this is what I was talking about. No, a teacher should not evangelize to a child of another religion while keeping that behind the parents back. It's creepy, and something that cults do, much like discussing "sexual orientation" to a child behind the parent's back is creepy and something that pedophiles do.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

          A teacher has no business in discussing why a student is of a particular religion nor does a teacher have any business covert prostylising in the classroom. If that happened, the Left would go nuts. But trying to convince a student they're of the wrong sex to the allegedly to the point of suicidal ideation is apparently fine. You do know THAT is the reason for the Florida parental rights bill, right?

          "Gender" identity is no where near religion. The idea that a person has the "wrong body" is delusional. It also leads to bodily mutilation. If a child was religious to the point of say self-flagellation, the Left would go nuts, but a 13 year old having a double mastectomy is fine. People having mastectomy scars was even in a toddler's show.
          It would be wrong for a teacher or anyone really to try to convince someone they have a gender identity that individual doesn't identify with. That's very different from teachers going along with a student's gender self-identification. Also, teachers using the gender identity a student identifies with has nothing to do with any type of surgery.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Bestiality isn't a criminal offense in some jurisdictions. It's legal in four states with at least two others trying to change their laws.

            Necrophilia is still legal in even more states, including places like Massachusetts and Vermont.

            Yeah, just dismiss evidence for what you don't want to believe is happening because obviously they just must, Must, MUST be lying.
            They are morally criminal at the very least.

            I'm not saying they must be lying, I'm saying I need corroborative evidence before believing testimony like that at face value. I would advise you to be similarly skeptical rather than attacking people for remaining neutral about an issue for which there is very limited information. Regardless, the point is that surgery and child custody has nothing at all to do with gender identity affirmation in schools.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              not mentioning something might be OK, depending on what it is. But in this case they are ACTIVELY deceiving the parents by referring to the student to the parents by their biological sex, while the child uses a different gender in school. for example, a biological girl says her gender an pronouns are male in school, but when the teacher talks to the parents they use "her/she" instead of "him/he" - that is not "omitting information" that is "deception"
              Fair enough. Is your opinion on deception the same in my scenario in which instead of a difference in pronouns, there's a different nickname? Quoted for convenience:

              Imagine that a student goes by the name Ollie at school and is called that name by all the students and teachers including myself. Ollie's parents hate the nickname and prefer to call him Oliver. If I use the name Oliver for that student when discussing his academic progress with his parents because that's the name they prefer to use for him am I concealing or deceiving them by following their lead?


              Also, how do you feel this deception is resolved in light of my point number two in the text you quoted?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                The bolded would be analogous to evangelism, and this is what I was talking about. No, a teacher should not evangelize to a child of another religion while keeping that behind the parents back. It's creepy, and something that cults do, much like discussing "sexual orientation" to a child behind the parent's back is creepy and something that pedophiles do.
                What sort of discussions about sexual orientation do pedophiles have with their victims?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                  Just out of curiosity...

                  Imagine a scenario in which a school district has a high number of conservative Muslim families. A significant percentage of students from these Muslim families secretly convert to Christianity and talk to other Christian students about Christianity, sometimes pray or read the Bible during free time, and maybe attend a Christian after school club. These children are concerned their families will punish them at best, abuse them at worst if they find out they converted, maybe send them to a special school for children to be indoctrinated into Islam or homes chooled with an Islam-focused curriculum. Should the school notify their parents that their children have converted to Christianity? If your answer is no, how is the scenario in the OP any different? If your answer is yes do you think teachers and guidance counselors have any moral responsibility at all to advocate for their students outside of mandated reporting?
                  Well said......

                  A 16yr old discovering that they are LGBT+ or religious transition in Texas must be a very difficult situation for them....dangerous even?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                    What sort of discussions about sexual orientation do pedophiles have with their victims?
                    Some of those folks who are opposed to any kind of LGBT+ rights often insist that the LGBT+ communities are riddled with pedophiles.
                    It can be the very first thing that they think of in connection to LGBT+ people........... most strange.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                      What sort of discussions about sexual orientation do pedophiles have with their victims?
                      There would be no way a teacher knew the sexual orientation of a child unless the child described it to the teacher, and there would be no reason a child would describe that to a teacher unless they were having a discussions about it. There was a teacher that brought sex toys to his class and taught the kids how to use them. I'm guessing he was a big advocate of sexual orientation and having discussions about it to his class. I'm also guessing he didn't want that to get out to the parents because he was caught describing it on a hidden cam. I would imagine that's a pretty good start. Pedophiles naturally want that type of secrecy between an adult and a child.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                        What sort of discussions about sexual orientation do pedophiles have with their victims?
                        In the grooming stages, could be almost anything. The goal is to introduce the topic of sex and make the potential victim comfortable with talking about sex with the pedophile. In many cases its a "long con" so to speak.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post

                          It would be wrong for a teacher or anyone really to try to convince someone they have a gender identity that individual doesn't identify with. That's very different from teachers going along with a student's gender self-identification. Also, teachers using the gender identity a student identifies with has nothing to do with any type of surgery.
                          So which do you think is taking place when this involves first graders? And given this is the age that a child could look you straight in the eye and in all seriousness declare that they're a unicorn, should teachers immediately leap forward to help promote this?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            So which do you think is taking place when this involves first graders? And given this is the age that a child could look you straight in the eye and in all seriousness declare that they're a unicorn, should teachers immediately leap forward to help promote this?
                            I was convinced that I was superman until I jumped (or rather leaped) off a one story chicken coup with my bed sheet cape. Just to be sure, I did it again - it hurt...Though the next day I was able to convince my cousin to try it - that was fun...
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by seer View Post

                              I was convinced that I was superman until I jumped (or rather leaped) off a one story chicken coup with my bed sheet cape. Just to be sure, I did it again - it hurt...
                              I didn't think I was Superman, but I thought I might be able to fly if I had a cape (i.e., a sheet), and climbed out a second story bedroom window onto the roof and jumped. Didn't get hurt and realized after the first attempt that it didn't work.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I didn't think I was Superman, but I thought I might be able to fly if I had a cape (i.e., a sheet), and climbed out a second story bedroom window onto the roof and jumped. Didn't get hurt and realized after the first attempt that it didn't work.
                                After my failed attempt to fly, I decided that I was Tarzan. That didn't work well either...
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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