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Cuban missile crisis +> all-out nuclear war?

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  • Cuban missile crisis +> all-out nuclear war?

    Is this true?
    all-out nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union, something which, by the way, many Pentagon and CIA officials believed was inevitable anyway.
    ---- http://fff.org/2014/03/19/they-accus...issile-crisis/

    The author of that quote did not provide documentation. What, beside Wikipedia, does any one of you readers have to back that quote?
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth Im after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

  • #2
    It's a pretty general quote -- how many is "many"? Sure some thought that, others believed the "Mutually Assured Destruction" Doctrine would keep either side from launching first.

    I think, more than anything, this is simply an attempt to justify Obama's foreign policy failures. Kennedy's Naval Blockade of Cuba by the US Navy was a "line" drawn*, and enforced. When Obama talks about a "line" or a "red line", there is no consequence.


    *it was "redrawn" once, then held.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      It's a pretty general quote -- how many is "many"? Sure some thought that, others believed the "Mutually Assured Destruction" Doctrine would keep either side from launching first.

      I think, more than anything, this is simply an attempt to justify Obama's foreign policy failures. Kennedy's Naval Blockade of Cuba by the US Navy was a "line" drawn*, and enforced. When Obama talks about a "line" or a "red line", there is no consequence.


      *it was "redrawn" once, then held.
      No documentation for your assertion that some people held the MAD theory?

      I don't think the author was trying to give excuses for Obama's foreign policies. Also I suspect you didn't bother to read the author's op-ed.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth Im after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #4
        It's an interesting assertion, one I've never heard before, but could easily be true due to the obvious vagueness of the word "many". The author provides his email at the bottom of the page, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to ask him for his source?
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm old enough to remember the MAD theory being widespread. A friend of mine wrote about this for his masters thesis.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            No documentation for your assertion that some people held the MAD theory?
            I'm over SIXTY YEARS OLD --- I lived through it.

            I don't think the author was trying to give excuses for Obama's foreign policies.
            I do.

            Also I suspect you didn't bother to read the author's op-ed.
            That's WHY I do.

            Look, if you just want to pick a fight, lemme know and I'll happily unsubscribe.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I'm over SIXTY YEARS OLD --- I lived through it.
              It's not that I doubt you knew and remember perfectly well what was going on in the bowels of the government (e.g., the Pentagon and the CIA). It's whether I can cite you as an authority on what people were thinking. Also, how: I can't just write something like this--Cow Poke, Theologyweb.com, March 21, 2014.
              I do [reminder: think that the author was trying to give excuses for Obama's foreign policies.]
              That's strange, I could have sworn that the author does not like Obama's foreign policies.
              That's WHY I do.
              I'm sorry, I don't get it. And I am not sure why you got mad at my statement that I suspected you didn't bother to read the op-ed.
              Look, if you just want to pick a fight, lemme know and I'll happily unsubscribe.
              I'm sorry, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way. I still don't know what way, I mean, I don't understand what I did to get you so angry.
              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

              [T]he truth Im after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Official Cathedral hagiography
                Dont forget, after all, that this was the height of the Cold War and of the obsessive anti-communist crusade that had taken control of American life.
                Stopped reading there. McCarthy was right, his opponent were in full power then, and are in full power now. Pretending that a coup was inevitable or would be taken seriously by politicians and their handlers proves you nothing more than a feverish dupe of the system who's fully swallowed the Communist Party line:

                The Outer Party has never even come close to damaging any part of the Polygon or Cathedral. Even McCarthy was not a real threat. He got a few people fired, most temporarily. Most of them were actually Soviet agents of one sort or another. They became martyrs and have been celebrated ever since. His goal was a purge of the State Department. He didn't even come close. If he had somehow managed to fire every Soviet agent or sympathizer in the US government, he would not even have done any damage. As Carroll Quigley pointed out, McCarthy (and his supporters) thought he was attacking a nest of Communist spies, whereas in fact he was attacking the American Establishment. Don't bring a toothpick to a gunfight.

                McCarthy never even considered trying to abolish the State Department - let alone State, Harvard, the CFR, the Rockefeller Foundation, and every other institution in the same class. By my count, if you lump all his efforts together with the entire phenomenon of McCarthyism, you get about 10 milli-Hitlers. (And not even Hitler, of course, succeeded in the end.)

                An essential element in the "art of persuasion" is the systematic propagation of the exact opposite of this situation. Devotees of the Inner Party and the Cathedral are deeply convinced that the Outer Party is about to fall on them and destroy them in a new fascist upheaval. They often believe that the Outer Party itself is the party of power. They can be easily terrified by poll results of the type that Powell, etc, demonstrated. There are all kinds of scary polls that can be conducted which, if they actually translated into actual election results in which the winners of the election held actual power, would seriously suck. That's democracy for you.

                But power in our society is not held by democratic politicians. Nor should it be. Indeed the intelligentsia are in a minority, indeed they live in a country that is a democracy, indeed in theory their entire way of life hangs by a thread. But if you step back and look at history over any significant period, you only see them becoming stronger. It is their beliefs that spread to the rest of the world, not the other direction. When Outer Party supporters embrace stupid ideas, no one has any reason to worry, because the Outer Party will never win. When the Inner Party goes mad, it is time to fear. Madness and power are not a fresh cocktail.
                So, if nuclear war does break out over World War Gay or whatever crazy idea you choose to believe in next, let it be known right now that you and your sympathizers are in fact the ones responsible.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  I still don't know what way, I mean, I don't understand what I did to get you so angry.
                  You mistake dismissiveness for anger.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    You mistake dismissiveness for anger.
                    Your opinion is that we were never close to all-out nuclear war? Maybe you don't believe the assertion that Khrushchev made a standing order that in the event that the USA invaded Cuba, the missiles installed there were to be fired off at the USA.
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth Im after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                      Your opinion is that we were never close to all-out nuclear war? Maybe you don't believe the assertion that Khrushchev made a standing order that in the event that the USA invaded Cuba, the missiles installed there were to be fired off at the USA.
                      Fairly certain that there were similar standing orders that if the USSR invaded America, our missiles in Eastern Europe were to be fired at Moscow. I'm also certain that both sides were well aware of these orders, which is why such invasions did not, in fact, happen.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        Your opinion is that we were never close to all-out nuclear war?
                        Absolutely not. We were VERY MUCH concerned about nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

                        Maybe you don't believe the assertion that Khrushchev made a standing order that in the event that the USA invaded Cuba, the missiles installed there were to be fired off at the USA.
                        Maybe you're not paying attention. Here is exactly what I said:

                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        It's a pretty general quote -- how many is "many"? Sure some thought that, others believed the "Mutually Assured Destruction" Doctrine would keep either side from launching first.
                        There was not a unified opinion one way or the other, which is EXACTLY why it was called a "crisis". Some were banking on the MAD Doctrine PREVENTING war, some thought the Kremlin was not in control... nobody really knew.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          It's a pretty general quote -- how many is "many"? Sure some thought that, others believed the "Mutually Assured Destruction" Doctrine would keep either side from launching first.
                          I think TS is a kid, or at the very least post-Cold War. He's also a bit ... yeah, that.

                          I think, more than anything, this is simply an attempt to justify Obama's foreign policy failures. Kennedy's Naval Blockade of Cuba by the US Navy was a "line" drawn*, and enforced. When Obama talks about a "line" or a "red line", there is no consequence.

                          *it was "redrawn" once, then held.
                          You're forgetting about the warheads in Turkey. The Soviet stand-down came at price.

                          In any case, I think you've misread the piece. Obama is left behind after the second paragraph. His inclusion was a topical launching pad for the author's libertarian isolationism. He's into conspiracy theories about a military coup in the U.S.

                          Check his bio. He writes for Lew Rockwell.

                          "Nuff said?

                          As ever, Jesse

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                            You're forgetting about the warheads in Turkey. The Soviet stand-down came at price.
                            No, didn't forget that at all.. and the US, of course, had to say these were obsolete and were going to be removed anyway.

                            In any case, I think you've misread the piece.
                            Fair enough.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since youve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?

                            Comment

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