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Dragphobia on the rise...

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  • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

    It sounds like you're having some incredible difficulty following a basic conversation.
    No surprise here. It's the left's double standard rearing its head again - to wit: he wanted to condemn Trump because a former member of the KKK supported his campaign. Guilt by (far) association ruled the day in that case.
    We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I do seem to commonly see a really basic error in logic from conservatives on this board where if A is ever associated with B, and if A is bad, then it smears forever both B and anyone ever in the future associated with B, even decades after the two groups separate, even if none of the same people are in the group anymore.

      As with Gond, I'm not a "conservative". Perhaps you have difficulty in following ideological pedigrees.

      I understand lack of mental ability is a prerequisite for being a conservative, but do at least try please. Groups are made up of lots of individuals, each of whom can have different views, not all of whom will agree with everything the group as a whole is doing. Over time as people move in and out of a group, the group will change, and affiliations with other groups will change.
      Are "boy lovers" tragic victims of a savage and underserved witch hunt as Gayle Rubin states? Is all love equal and if it happens to be between an adult and a youth? The gay couple of the other thread certainly believed "love is love".

      I personally support LGBT rights in the present day, but I've never been affiliated with any groups.

      Groups who believe that it's not a problem for a man to be nude in front of children to expose children to highly sexualised drag shows.


      The only place I've ever heard of this NAMBLA group, which started before I was born, is in this
      More evidence you know next to nothing about the US.
      P1) If , then I win.

      P2)

      C) I win.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        Are "boy lovers" tragic victims of a savage and underserved witch hunt as Gayle Rubin states? Is all love equal and if it happens to be between an adult and a youth? The gay couple of the other thread certainly believed "love is love".
        I'm not entirely sure why you are suddenly talking to me about this topic. What exactly inspired you to post in this thread about this topic and target this post at me? You seem to be posting as if we were in the middle of a conversation on this subject, but we weren't, so I'm having trouble following you.

        I don't support adult-child sexual relationships. They are illegal for good reason.

        Groups who believe that it's not a problem for a man to be nude in front of children to expose children to highly sexualised drag shows.
        This doesn't seem to be a complete sentence. What groups? Why are you talking about groups? Can you be more coherent please?
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          I'm not entirely sure why you are suddenly talking to me about this topic.
          Do you not recall our previous posts on this very thread regarding queer and drag pedagogy?

          What exactly inspired you to post in this thread about this topic and target this post at me? You seem to be posting as if we were in the middle of a conversation on this subject, but we weren't, so I'm having trouble following you.
          I posted here, instead of the other thread about the couple as I thought this thread had been moved into the psychiatric ward due to the content of the thread.

          I don't support adult-child sexual relationships. They are illegal for good reason.
          Unfortunately, there are people you disagree with the illegality of adult-child relationship and queer theory includes these people like Gayle Rubin who stated:

          In Western culture, sex is taken all too seriously. A person is not considered immoral, is not sent to prison, and is not expelled from her or his family, for enjoying spicy cuisine.


          She compares the illegality of adult-child relationship to making spicy cuisine illegal.


          This doesn't seem to be a complete sentence. What groups? Why are you talking about groups? Can you be more coherent please?
          So you're unaware of children being taken to drag shows and putting money into thongs? The 2022 Seattle Pride Parade had nudist cyclists in front of boy scouts no less. Do you just forget the instances of this stuff when it's brought up? During the 2022 Cologne Pride parade, there seems to have included the pro-molestation group "Krumme-13". The term "minor attracted person" can even be found in Google Scholar. Apparently the EU and Germany are even funding youth in drag under the Erasmus+ programme. One such grant:

          36 young queer people, some facing multiple discriminations, from Germany, Spain, Greece, Slovenia, Italy, Poland and Romania came together for the youth exchange “Drag It Up” in Berlin from 1-9 November 2021. Using non-formal and informal education, the participants learned and experience theater, dance and performance, but also makeup, wigs, walking in high heels and other methods of blurring and exaggerating traditional binary gender roles. They got to know the rich and diverse drag and queer scene in Berlin and learned about the historical, social and political contexts of drag, queer activism and queer art.


          I would caution looking up the event due to the nature of the material.

          Another grant regarding a project called "DragTivism":

          Participants: participants over 16 years for the 6 participating countries. At least 50% of the participants come from social contexts with fewer opportunities. 30 youngsters 16-25 years old, 6 group leaders and 3 facilitators



          But this is all hoax, right?
          P1) If , then I win.

          P2)

          C) I win.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
            Do you not recall our previous posts on this very thread regarding queer and drag pedagogy?
            This doesn't seem to be on that topic.

            Unfortunately, there are people you disagree with the illegality of adult-child relationship
            For every single view that I have it's probably possible to find someone in the world who disagrees with it. I don't really care that this person I've barely heard of disagrees with me on an issue.

            She compares the illegality of adult-child relationship to making spicy cuisine illegal.
            People write lots of weird things I disagree with. Many people who write weird things I disagree with post on this forum.

            So you're unaware of children being taken to drag shows and putting money into thongs?
            Different parents raise their children differently. I do think there are plenty of 'bad parents' in the world. Interfering with other people's parenting is difficult. One of the biggest cultural differences I see between my country and the US, is that people in the US seem to fervently believe in the rights of parents to raise their children however they want (at the expense of any rights the child might have to be raised well), whereas my country puts more emphasis on the rights of the child to be raised well, so there is less social tolerance of bad parenting. To the extent that your viewpoint here is "I don't like how other people are parenting their children", I don't think you'll get much mileage out of that view in the US.

            The 2022 Seattle Pride Parade had nudist cyclists in front of boy scouts no less. Do you just forget the instances of this stuff when it's brought up?
            I probably mostly don't read such posts in the first place, but yes, I probably do pretty immediately forget it because I just don't care. Remembering a long list of one-off US conservative outrage incidents is not a priority for me.

            36 young queer people, some facing multiple discriminations, from Germany, Spain, Greece, Slovenia, Italy, Poland and Romania came together for the youth exchange “Drag It Up” in Berlin from 1-9 November 2021. Using non-formal and informal education, the participants learned and experience theater, dance and performance, but also makeup, wigs, walking in high heels and other methods of blurring and exaggerating traditional binary gender roles. They got to know the rich and diverse drag and queer scene in Berlin and learned about the historical, social and political contexts of drag, queer activism and queer art.
            Oh wow, out of the billion kids in the world, 36 young people who identified as queer got to opt into a queer-focused trip? Say it ain't so! Is the world ending?

            But this is all hoax, right?
            Seems like it. You seem to be unjustifiably hyperventilating about a handful of individual incidents as if they were the norm. If I were to post a list of people who got murdered in the last week and then scream "Everyone's getting murdered! Everyone panic!", I would expect you to rightly call me out on such a hoax, because a handful on incidents wouldn't suggest it was happening commonly.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

              Perhaps it should be noted, NAMBLA was a common guest at Pride parades in the 70s and 80s, well into the 90s. It wasn't until the mid 90s that ILGA kicked them out when it looked like the UN might drop them as a partner for their association with NAMBLA.
              Star is very well of this as he's been informed of it multiple time for over the past half a decade like this from 2016


              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              What is with you and your obsession with this false claim? It's been debunked time and again on this forum.


              What is with you guys and your general obsession with NAMBLA? Seriously, it's pretty weird.
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Really?

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              It's roots are much deeper. From Journal of Homosexuality in 1991:

              Source: Man/Boy Love and the American Gay Movement


              Abstract

              The issue of man/boy love has intersected the gay movement since the late nineteenth century, with the rise of the first gay rights movement in Germany. In the United States, as the gay movement has retreated from its vision of sexual freedom for all in favor of integration into existing social and political structures, it has sought to marginalize cross-generational love as a "non-gay" issue. The two movements continue to overlap, amid signs of mutual support as well as tension - a state of affairs that also characterizes their interrelationship in other countries. This article offers an overview and analysis of that interrelationship in the United States since the Stonewall Riots in New York City in June 1969, which marked the beginning of a reinvigorated struggle for gay liberation.

              © Copyright Original Source



              And from your source:

              The first documented opposition to NAMBLA from LGBT organizations occurred at the conference that organized the first gay march on Washington in 1979.[27] In 1980, a group, called the Lesbian Caucus, distributed a flyer urging women to split from the annual New York City Gay Pride March, because according to the group, the organizing committee had been dominated by NAMBLA and its supporters.[27] The next year, after some lesbians threatened to picket, the Cornell University group Gay People at Cornell (Gay PAC) rescinded its invitation to NAMBLA founder David Thorstad to be the keynote speaker at the annual May Gay Festival.[27] In the following years, gay rights groups tried to block NAMBLAs participation in gay pride parades, prompting leading gay rights figure Harry Hay to wear a sign proclaiming "NAMBLA walks with me" as he participated in a 1986 gay pride march in Los Angeles


              Wrt to the last sentence I'll add that the poet Allen Ginsberg, often celebrated and revered in gay circles for his activism in support of their cause, was also a member and supporter of NAMBLA -- something that is often omitted. Ginsburg declared that "Attacks on NAMBLA stink of politics, witchhunting for profit, humorlessness, vanity, anger and ignorance. . . . Im a member of NAMBLA because I love boys too everybody does, who has a little humanity.

              And the 1972 Gay Rights Platform, created at the National Coalition of Gay Organizations Convention (represented by some 200 gay rights groups) held in Chicago of that year, called for "Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent" (#7 of actions to be taken at the state level). To the best of my knowledge, none of the organizations involved or their successors have ever repudiated this platform including the call to eliminate an age of consent.
              Your only defense was to say that NAMBLA got booted out of participating in events like some gay pride marches[1] conveniently overlooking the fact that they were part of, and the founder of NAMBLA, David Thorstad, had even been invited to be the keynote speaker at. Then the leaders of the gay rights movement realized that they had to jettison their longtime allies if they ever were going to succeed in normalizing gay behavior.

              That they had marched arm-and-arm together for quite some time is attested to by the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) acknowledgement that NAMBLA played an integral part of the gay rights movement for at least a decade stating in 1994.

              NAMBLA has been a member of the International Lesbian and Gay Association for 10 years. We've been continuously active in ILGA longer than any other US organization. NAMBLA delegates to ILGA helped write ILGA's constitution, its official positions on the sexual rights of youth, and its stands against sexual coercion and corporal punishment. We are proud of our contributions in making ILGA a stronger voice for the international gay and lesbian movement and for sexual justice.

              In spite of this proud history, four of ILGA's six secretariats, meeting in New York, November 5-7, have request NAMBLA to resign and stated that they will seek its expulsion by the general membership this summer unless it complies.


              IOW, NAMBLA had been a member in good standing of ILGA, and only after that latter group sought consultative status with the United Nations, were accepted and then suspended when their close relationship with NAMBLA was discovered, were they tossed aside, as the gay rights magazine The Advocate describes it, "revoking NAMBLA's ten-year membership in the worldwide group."

              Oops.

              In fact NAMBLA arose out of the the "Boston-Boise Committee," which was a gay rights organization, and their reaction to the arrest of 24 men for having sex with minors during a raid on a house in the late 70s (which they termed the "Boston witchunt"), in order to promote solidarity among gay men, declaring in an official leaflet that:"The Gay Community Fights Back" and "The closet is weak. There is strength in unity and openness."

              And as I've previously noted there were many outspoken prominent gay activists who were upset with this and refused to throw their comrades under the bus such as the poet Allen Ginsberg with his "Attacks on NAMBLA stink of politics, witchhunting for profit, humorlessness, vanity, anger and ignorance" remark. And prominent American gay rights activist, Harry Hay, sometimes referred to as the "Father of Gay Liberation" wearing his "NAMBLA walks with me" sign at the 1986 Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade after NAMBLA was excluded.


              Even more telling were his remarks at the 1983 NAMBLA conference in New York where he proclaimed:

              "If the parents and friends of gays are truly friends of gays, they would know from their gay kids that the relationship with an older man is precisely what thirteen-, fourteen-, and fifteen-year-old kids need more than anything else in the world"


              Need more or are you still in denial?

              How about Michael Kearns' 1988 article "Men Loving Boys" in the Los Angeles gay magazine Edge where he said that

              "Discrimination among ourselves is profoundly self destructive. NAMBLA deserves to be heard and respected"


              "Respected"?

              In the Bay Area Reporter (BAR -- the oldest as well as one of the largest circulation pro-gay newspapers by circulation in the United States), Steve Hanson declared in a 1992 article "Shame on Us":

              "Shame on us if our lesbian/gay voices remain silent while our NAMBLA brothers are persecuted once again, and shame on those lesbians and gay men who will raise their voices to condemn NAMBLA, insisting that boy lovers (and presumably the boys they love and who love them) are not part of this thing called the lesbian/gay community."


              Scott O'Hara (real name John Robert Scott), the gay porno actor and activist who published the quarterly gay sex magazine Steam wrote

              "In the efforts of the gay establishment to suppress NAMBLA I see the seeds of tyranny."


              James Lynn 'Jim' Kepner, regarded as a pioneer of the U.S. gay rights movement, curator of the International Gay and Lesbian Archives in Los Angeles which became a major part of ONE National Gay & Lesbian Archives (called the premier source for gay and lesbian research), wrote

              "If we reject the boylovers in our midst today wed better stop waving the banner of the Ancient Greeks, of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, [and others]. Wed better stop claiming them as part of our heritage unless we are broadening our concept of what it means to be gay today."


              In his 1991 book The Big Gay Book: A Man's Survival Guide for the 90s, John D. Preston, described as a pioneer in the early gay rights movement in Minneapolis, Minnesota who helped found one of the earliest gay community centers in the United States, was still promoting NAMBLA when he tells his readers

              "Sex between youths and adults is one of the most difficult issues in the gay movement. When does a youngster have the right and the power to make his own sexual decisions? How are laws against intergenerational sex used specifically to target gay men? What are the issues that make the romantic image of the Greek teacher and his student in times of antiquity turn into something ugly and forbidden in the modern age? If you want to explore these issues, NAMBLA is the organization that will supply you with brochures, thought-provoking books and booklets."


              Around the same time the founder of the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power (ACT-UP) was blaming the victims of pedophiles in order to justify it as recounted in Reports from the Holocaust: The Story of an AIDS Activist a book about on AIDS activism and gay rights:

              "In those cases where children do have sex with their homosexual elders... I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it, either because of a natural curiosity."


              Likewise the French philosopher Michel Foucault with an apparent fondness for the sado-masochistic gay scene, made similar claims

              "It is quite difficult to lay down barriers [particularly since] it could be that the child, with his own sexuality, may have desired the adult."


              Samuel Delany, a noted Science Fiction author who has won 4 Nebula and 2 Hugo awards, and an outspoken gay activist wrote in the Queer Desires Forum in 1994:

              *Mild language warning*


              "I read The NAMBLA Bulletin fairly regularly and I think it is one of the most intelligent discussions of sexuality I've ever found. ... Before you start judging what NAMBLA is about, expose yourself to it and see what it is really about, the issues they are really talking about; and deal with what's really there rather than this demonized notion of guys running about trying to screw little boys. I would have been so much happier as an adolescent if NAMBLA had been around when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, 13."


              In a 1994 issue of the national gay magazine 10 Percent Magazine, one of NAMBLA's founders boasted, David Thorstad boasted

              "If it weren't for us [pedophiles], there wouldn't be a gay movement. If the leaders of the gay movement today want to turn their backs on the spirit of gay liberation, f- them. We're speaking the truth, and the truth is that man boy love is a central part of gay liberation, and it is a central feature of homosexuality in the West."



              ETA: And, btw, I cannot help but notice how you always overlooked this part of my original post when it is brought up

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              And the 1972 Gay Rights Platform, created at the National Coalition of Gay Organizations Convention (represented by some 200 gay rights groups) held in Chicago of that year, called for "Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent" (#7 of actions to be taken at the state level). To the best of my knowledge, none of the organizations involved or their successors have ever repudiated this platform including the call to eliminate an age of consent.
              To add to that back in 1984 a Philadelphia bookstore sold a book entitled How to Have Sex With Kids by the Howard Nichols Society (run by David Sonenschein, a former consultant to the 1970 Presidential Committee on Obscenity and Pornography!), which included instructions on how to both entice and kidnap small children, how to have sex with them, and even how to intimidate and threaten them into silence. The gay community proclaimed that the book was protected by the First Amendment and generally refused to either disavow the contents of the book or to criticize the writers, publishers, or distributors of it.



              1. After being disinvited for political expediency NAMBLA was nevertheless still invited to participate in other gay pride marches such as the Spirit of Stonewall (SOS) parade. Long time gay activist and civil libertarian Bill Dobbs was extremely vocal in his defense of their participation.
              300px-Anti-nuc1982.jpg
              NAMBLA at the SOS parade

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • As I said in the post Rogue quoted above:

                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                What is with you guys and your general obsession with NAMBLA? Seriously, it's pretty weird.
                That point still applies it seems.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  As I said in the post Rogue quoted above:



                  That point still applies it seems.
                  Who wouldn't be concerned about a group that wants to normalise men having sex with boys?
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                    Who wouldn't be concerned about a group that wants to normalise men having sex with boys?
                    Not Star, apparently.
                    We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Star is very well of this as he's been informed of it multiple time for over the past half a decade like this from 2016



                      Ah, so he's just playing dumb and trying to ignore inconvenient facts. No surprise there.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                        Who wouldn't be concerned about a group that wants to normalise men having sex with boys?
                        I would measure the danger posed by their effect. In this instance, I would estimate their chances of getting a law changed to legalize sex with minors to be 0.00%. It's not legal, and they are not at all likely to persuade any significant amount of voters or politicians to make it legal. The end.

                        If your fear is that they are personally currently engaging in illegal acts and/or successfully encouraging others to do so, that would be potentially problematic. But the wiki article says NAMBLA now has been almost completely disbanded with individuals instead joining online pedophile networks rather than being part of the NAMBLA organization. As such, NAMBLA would itself seem to pose no meaningful threat in the present day. It's interesting to see conservatives getting so scared of something that barely exists.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                          Ah, so he's just playing dumb and trying to ignore inconvenient facts. No surprise there.
                          I've had Rogue rant at me about NAMBLA in the past and I rolled my eyes then as hard as I'm rolling them now. If you want to join his crazy club of NAMBLA-terrified people, so be it. Are you guys scared of your own shadow too?
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            I've had Rogue rant at me about NAMBLA in the past and I rolled my eyes then as hard as I'm rolling them now. If you want to join his crazy club of NAMBLA-terrified people, so be it. Are you guys scared of your own shadow too?
                            As child sex trafficking is on the rise world wide Star waves his hand! Nothing to see here...


                            https://www.childrensrights.org/news...x-trafficking/
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              I would measure the danger posed by their effect. In this instance, I would estimate their chances of getting a law changed to legalize sex with minors to be 0.00%. It's not legal, and they are not at all likely to persuade any significant amount of voters or politicians to make it legal. The end.

                              If your fear is that they are personally currently engaging in illegal acts and/or successfully encouraging others to do so, that would be potentially problematic. But the wiki article says NAMBLA now has been almost completely disbanded with individuals instead joining online pedophile networks rather than being part of the NAMBLA organization. As such, NAMBLA would itself seem to pose no meaningful threat in the present day. It's interesting to see conservatives getting so scared of something that barely exists.
                              The legality of something is a matter of time. The books that are being banned are books the specifically detail sex between minors. The goal is normalisation. Once minor-minor sexual relationships are normal, adult-minor relationships are a small jump. The founder of queer theory believed the targeting of "boy lovers" was a savage and underserved witch hunt. No where have I talked about NAMBLA. I've talked about relevant individuals to current cultural dynamics. When Polanski was detained in 2009 in Switzerland, people like Weinstein and other individuals in the film industry considered it a "terrible situation". They had no problem defending someone willing to take a plea bargain when they had been accused of drugging and raping a 13 yr old.
                              P1) If , then I win.

                              P2)

                              C) I win.

                              Comment


                              • As child sex trafficking is on the rise world wide Star waves his hand! Nothing to see here...
                                I don't know how wide spread it is, but I just predict it won't end well for anyone who is on the side of deviant pride.

                                protest.JPG



                                Comment

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