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"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostNo, they didn't. Believing stories made up in the 90s to make trans people feel better just makes you look retarded
The Jesuits recorded the observations [in North America] of numerous missionaries and traders who had witnessed men in women’s clothing, work roles, and sexual roles. ...anthropologists later applied the term berdache to American Indians who assumed the dress, social status, and role of the opposite sex.
The arrival of Europeans in the Americas and the introduction of Christianity had a marked effect on berdache traditions and acceptance. Europeans viewed any gender variation outside of the male-female binary and any sexual practices and behaviours other than the culturally accepted relations between men and women as deviant. For them, the term berdache was one of judgment, one that condemned individuals who occupied those roles, as well as the cultures that accepted them. As colonization continued, berdache people and traditions were pushed out.
Individuals labeled as “berdache” occupied what the Europeans considered to be sexually deviant roles. Initially, only biological men who adopted women’s social status, dress, and sexual roles were labeled as berdache. Although female berdaches also were present, they were not acknowledged and were later often overlooked by anthropologists.
The term berdache was also applied to individuals who were anatomically different, such that they did not fit the European definition of male or female, and were judged as freaks of nature, monsters, and deviants. This classification of American Indians who were what would now be considered intersex (previously known as hermaphrodite) was continued by anthropologists.
In American Indian cultures, many nations accepted the practice of multiple sex and gender roles.
Are you going with "Jesuits didn't exist", or "anthropologists don't exist"? Or why not both?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Gond,
Just in case you go with "Encyclopedia Britannica is too modern and woke", here's a 1955 anthropology article from the Journal American Anthropologist, which in turn cites an anthropologist from 1899. Hopefully you agree 1955 or 1899 predate the woke agenda?
The existence of berdaches [what we today would label a 'transgender person'] or transvestites [among North American native cultures] has been known for many years. The earliest travelers, explorers, and missionaries instanced the phenomenon...
The term was first used, as far as we can discern, in an anthropological or quasi-anthropological sense by early French travelers and explorers, who used it to designate passive homosexuals, or, more specifically, those individuals who played a passive role to sodomy. Contaminating the classical picture, however, was the element of transvestism... The French found this contamination not only in southeastern North America but in the northeastern sector as well... But again there was the added feature, the assumption of feminine pursuits and feminine attire... An interest in feminine pursuits and transvestism came quite naturally to become associated with berdache. So much so, in fact, that in present-day ethnographic accounts transvestism and effeminacy have become synonymous with berdache... The literature is replete with accounts of berdache who are married... in many instances, to individuals of the same physiological sex...
Thwaites ([in] 1899...), for instance, defines berdaches, also to be referred to as transvestites, “as those persons, male or female who, while still young, assume the dress and habits of the opposite sex and retain them throughout their lives.”
Kroeber (1940: 209-10) characterizes berdache or transvestism in much the same manner. “In most of primitive Northern Asia and North America men of homosexual trends adopted women’s work and status and were accepted as non psychological, but institutionalized women.” Here there is mention of two criteria: social role and erotic object. Kroeber is not completely satisfied with the second of these for he goes on to say, “How far invert erotic practices accompanied the status is not always clear from the data and probably varied . . . at any rate, the North American attitude toward the berdache stresses not his erotic life, but his social status; born a male he became accepted as a woman socially.”
Is a 19th century anthropologist saying that some people in native North American societies "assume the dress and habits of the opposite sex and retain them throughout their lives" good enough for you? Or the anthropologists in 1955 noting that the historical literature is "replete" with accounts of same-sex marriages in native North American societies?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThere is a female sex, and there is a female gender, and the two are not the same. One is a biological category, and one is a social category. The word female has two different meaning and so I am being unambiguous and explicit when I say in my definition that I am referring to "the female gender".Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostOh, that's what's causing your weird statements?
No, I am no referring to female as a sex in my definition. The definition literally said "the female gender". Not a sex: a gender.
There is a female sex, and there is a female gender, and the two are not the same. One is a biological category, and one is a social category. The word female has two different meaning and so I am being unambiguous and explicit when I say in my definition that I am referring to "the female gender".
And please don't follow up by pretending you can't mentally cope with words that can have more than one meaning. Lots of words in English do.
Hopefully I have clarified this misunderstanding on your part. Female in English can have different meanings. It can be referring to the female sex, or it can be referring to the female gender. That is why in my definition I said "the female gender" to make absolutely clear I was referring to the female gender and not the female sex.
I am denying "female" is a sex in the sense that in my post when I said the words "female gender", that is not a sex.
It can be a sex designation or a gender designation depending on the context. You can have the female biological sex, and the female gender, and those two things are not the same.
"Female" is inherently a sex designation. You even conceded "female gender" is by default for females. How do those who "transition" to "female gender" actually comport to "female gender"? HRT and SRS attempt to comport a male to being female both hormonally and phenotypically with breast implants and creating an open wound in their groin.
If merely taking on the traditional roles of women and wearing traditional women clothes succeeded in gender transition, HRT and SRS would be unnecessary.
Females "transitioning" similarly have double mastectomies to comport to how a male body looks. The very act "transitioning" subverts your idea of a "female gender" that is independent of biological sex.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo a female gender in no way is trying to emulating biological female markers?
When you talk about "emulating biological female markers" I presume you're referring to medical interventions? There are a couple of ways you could think about those. One would be that the medical interventions are used when the person is suffering distress that their body isn't sufficiently similar to that of other people of their gender. It reduces their distress by increasing the physical similarities between themselves and others of their gender. The other way of thinking about it as altering the outward biological sex characteristics of their body to conform with the biological sex they would prefer to be. Probably there is diversity in how transgender people themselves conceptualize that process.
It is only emulating superficial cultural characteristics?
So why all the surgeries and hormones then?
But the research does seem to show that in the present day a lot of transgender people do find it preferable to have medical interventions on their bodies.
Also does that make a gay drag queen a female gender?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostA female gender refers to social & behavioral characteristics.
The other way of thinking about it as altering the outward biological sex characteristics of their body to conform with the biological sex they would prefer to be. Probably there is diversity in how transgender people themselves conceptualize that process.
A "gender" refers to the superficial cultural characteristics, yes. It refers to things like styles of clothing (dress vs pants etc), types of speech used (e.g. he vs she), hair styles (e.g. long vs short),
behavioral patterns etc.
Obviously transgender people have existed for thousands of years in human societies that lacked the ability to perform any serious level of medical intervention. Getting any form of medical intervention is not an inherent part of being transgender.
But the research does seem to show that in the present day a lot of transgender people do find it preferable to have medical interventions on their bodies.
Because, as you've conceded, it's about sex, not gender.
Drag queens are not inherently gay. But, yes, a drag queen is performatively taking on the female gender for the duration of the drag event: That's pretty much what drag is by definition.Last edited by Diogenes; 03-18-2023, 06:31 AM.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post"Female" is inherently a sex designation.
If you want to just say "nuh, uh, I refuse to acknowledge words can have any meanings with the ones I prefer" then I'm going to file you with the "gay means 'happy' and only 'happy' and absolutely doesn't mean 'homosexual'" nutbars from decades ago and cease this discussion.
You even conceded "female gender" is by default for females.
How do those who "transition" to "female gender" actually comport to "female gender"?
HRT and SRS attempt to comport a male to being female both hormonally and phenotypically with breast implants and creating an open wound in their groin.
If merely taking on the traditional roles of women and wearing traditional women clothes succeeded in gender transition, HRT and SRS would be unnecessary.
One thing I would note that was historically more common in societies before medical transitions were around was more genders. Typically a person would move from their birth gender to a 3rd or 4th gender. e.g. the society would recognize "male", "female", "trans-man" and "trans-woman" as genders, so a male would transition to a trans-woman.
Modern Western society doesn't really have that. In the modern west a 'trans-woman' typically tries/wants to belong to the "female" gender rather than a "trans-woman" gender. I would say that in this modern West this probably motivates and is connected to the idea of having medical interventions to change the body. They want to look like others of their female gender. Whereas if they were just in a 'trans-woman' gender, they would already look like others of their gender. I obviously can't speak to the minds and motives of every transgender person and they probably have a diverse set of reasons and ideas, but it's generally my thought that our fairly strict two-gender culture in the modern West is connected to the desire for medical interventions among transgender people, and that if we were in a culture that had more genders then people might be happier being transgender without feeling a need for medical physical changes.
The very act "transitioning" subverts your idea of a "female gender" that is independent of biological sex.
As I said above, there are at least a couple of different ways of thinking about it. The person could think about it as wanting to look physically more similar to others of their gender. Or they could think about it as they really wishing they were the other biological sex and think about it as wanting to change their bodies to be as much like that biological sex as possible. And, of course, alternative a transgender person could simply never undergo any physical medical interventions at all, as was the case of transgender people in human cultures for the last thousands of years since before modern medicine they just didn't have the option."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostEncyclopedia Brittannica on this issue:
The Jesuits recorded the observations [in North America] of numerous missionaries and traders who had witnessed men in women’s clothing, work roles, and sexual roles. ...anthropologists later applied the term berdache to American Indians who assumed the dress, social status, and role of the opposite sex.
The arrival of Europeans in the Americas and the introduction of Christianity had a marked effect on berdache traditions and acceptance. Europeans viewed any gender variation outside of the male-female binary and any sexual practices and behaviours other than the culturally accepted relations between men and women as deviant. For them, the term berdache was one of judgment, one that condemned individuals who occupied those roles, as well as the cultures that accepted them. As colonization continued, berdache people and traditions were pushed out.
Individuals labeled as “berdache” occupied what the Europeans considered to be sexually deviant roles. Initially, only biological men who adopted women’s social status, dress, and sexual roles were labeled as berdache. Although female berdaches also were present, they were not acknowledged and were later often overlooked by anthropologists.
The term berdache was also applied to individuals who were anatomically different, such that they did not fit the European definition of male or female, and were judged as freaks of nature, monsters, and deviants. This classification of American Indians who were what would now be considered intersex (previously known as hermaphrodite) was continued by anthropologists.
In American Indian cultures, many nations accepted the practice of multiple sex and gender roles.
Are you going with "Jesuits didn't exist", or "anthropologists don't exist"? Or why not both?
And you do know that intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism, right? And that a so-called third gender would be the opposite of transgenderism (which works on a binary and claims that one can change one's gender to the other), right?
And that Jesuits making second hand recordings of observations of other people who dont understand a foreign culture or what men and women's clothing in that culture are, is a pretty weak argument, right?
You seem to be talking out your bum and frantically googling.Last edited by Gondwanaland; 03-18-2023, 06:51 AM.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt can be a sex designation and it can be a gender designation.
If you want to just say "nuh, uh, I refuse to acknowledge words can have any meanings with the ones I prefer" then I'm going to file you with the "gay means 'happy' and only 'happy' and absolutely doesn't mean 'homosexual'" nutbars from decades ago and cease this discussion.
I understand shifting definitions, but, as you have conceded to seer, it's about sex. Furthermore, logically, it's about sex otherwise HRT and SRS would not be considered "effective treatment".
In our society we put people of the female sex into the female gender as our default yes. Social categories created by society, such as genders, are up to society to define.
In my observation they tend to change their mode of dress (e.g. to wearing a dress), change their name, change whether they prefer to be addressed as "she" or "he", change their hair style and makeup preferences, and potentially change the toilet they use.
Indeed medical interventions attempt various bodily changes to change the visible manifestations of the person's sex.
As I noted to seer, people were gender transitioning for thousands of years before any medical interventions were around.
One thing I would note that was historically more common in societies before medical transitions were around was more genders. Typically a person would move from their birth gender to a 3rd or 4th gender. e.g. the society would recognize "male", "female", "trans-man" and "trans-woman" as genders, so a male would transition to a trans-woman.
Yes, different genders. Actually being "transgender" would not require medical intervention.
Modern Western society doesn't really have that. In the modern west a 'trans-woman' typically tries/wants to belong to the "female" gender rather than a "trans-woman" gender. I would say that in this modern West this probably motivates and is connected to the idea of having medical interventions to change the body. They want to look like others of their female gender. Whereas if they were just in a 'trans-woman' gender, they would already look like others of their gender. I obviously can't speak to the minds and motives of every transgender person and they probably have a diverse set of reasons and ideas, but it's generally my thought that our fairly strict two-gender culture in the modern West is connected to the desire for medical interventions among transgender people, and that if we were in a culture that had more genders then people might be happier being transgender without feeling a need for medical physical changes.
As I said above, there are at least a couple of different ways of thinking about it. The person could think about it as wanting to look physically more similar to others of their gender. Or they could think about it as they really wishing they were the other biological sex and think about it as wanting to change their bodies to be as much like that biological sex as possible. And, of course, alternative a transgender person could simply never undergo any physical medical interventions at all, as was the case of transgender people in human cultures for the last thousands of years since before modern medicine they just didn't have the option.
Again, gender does not have a physicality as it regard social conventions. Attempts to be more like the female sex a subvert the independence of gender from sex.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Diogenes View PostThank you for conceding it's about sex, not gender. Thank you for ending the charade.
If you want to make a logical argument that something I said in some way has an implication that leads to that conclusion, you can by all means make it and I will show you why it fails. But your basic attitude of "Starlight, you posted your argument against my position, I will respond by declaring you conceded to my position" is just lying.
Are you saying men can't wear a dress or women can't wear pants? Can men not have long hair? Can women not have short hair?
If an individual deliberately and consistently switches to a pattern of behavior which matches to a group they aren't/weren't in, then perhaps they have switched groups. Obviously it's a matter of cultural understanding and individual intention as to whether they have switched groups, whether they are doing it for parody or insult purposes, etc.
behavioral patterns
Those were more third genders than transgender.
The didn't need medical intervention as they weren't trying to change their sex.
Also, cultural appropriation.
Because, as you've conceded, it's about sex, not gender.
In modern times, [drag]'s part of queer culture."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostGond,
Just in case you go with "Encyclopedia Britannica is too modern and woke", here's a 1955 anthropology article from the Journal American Anthropologist, which in turn cites an anthropologist from 1899. Hopefully you agree 1955 or 1899 predate the woke agenda?
The existence of berdaches [what we today would label a 'transgender person'] or transvestites [among North American native cultures] has been known for many years. The earliest travelers, explorers, and missionaries instanced the phenomenon...
The term was first used, as far as we can discern, in an anthropological or quasi-anthropological sense by early French travelers and explorers, who used it to designate passive homosexuals, or, more specifically, those individuals who played a passive role to sodomy. Contaminating the classical picture, however, was the element of transvestism... The French found this contamination not only in southeastern North America but in the northeastern sector as well... But again there was the added feature, the assumption of feminine pursuits and feminine attire... An interest in feminine pursuits and transvestism came quite naturally to become associated with berdache. So much so, in fact, that in present-day ethnographic accounts transvestism and effeminacy have become synonymous with berdache... The literature is replete with accounts of berdache who are married... in many instances, to individuals of the same physiological sex...
Thwaites ([in] 1899...), for instance, defines berdaches, also to be referred to as transvestites, “as those persons, male or female who, while still young, assume the dress and habits of the opposite sex and retain them throughout their lives.”
Kroeber (1940: 209-10) characterizes berdache or transvestism in much the same manner. “In most of primitive Northern Asia and North America men of homosexual trends adopted women’s work and status and were accepted as non psychological, but institutionalized women.” Here there is mention of two criteria: social role and erotic object. Kroeber is not completely satisfied with the second of these for he goes on to say, “How far invert erotic practices accompanied the status is not always clear from the data and probably varied . . . at any rate, the North American attitude toward the berdache stresses not his erotic life, but his social status; born a male he became accepted as a woman socially.”
Is a 19th century anthropologist saying that some people in native North American societies "assume the dress and habits of the opposite sex and retain them throughout their lives" good enough for you? Or the anthropologists in 1955 noting that the historical literature is "replete" with accounts of same-sex marriages in native North American societies?
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
You.... do understand berdache essentially means boy prostitute/reciever of Sodomy, right? And that it has not a thing to do with gender but rather stereotypical "effeminate" homosexuals, right?
And you do know that intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism, right? And that a so-called third gender would be the opposite of transgenderism (which works on a binary and claims that one can change one's gender to the other), right?
And that Jesuits making second hand recordings of observations of other people who dont understand a foreign culture or what men and women's clothing in that culture are, is a pretty weak argument, right?
You seem to be talking out your bum and frantically googling.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostPlease stop lying. I did not concede any such thing. If you have no interest at all in truth, there isn't much point in any discussions.
If you want to make a logical argument that something I said in some way has an implication that leads to that conclusion, you can by all means make it and I will show you why it fails. But your basic attitude of "Starlight, you posted your argument against my position, I will respond by declaring you conceded to my position" is just lying.
The culture has an overall behavioral pattern for people in various groups. Obviously individuals can deviate from typical behaviors, and often do in small way.
If an individual deliberately and consistently switches to a pattern of behavior which matches to a group they aren't/weren't in, then perhaps they have switched groups. Obviously it's a matter of cultural understanding and individual intention as to whether they have switched groups, whether they are doing it for parody or insult purposes, etc.
No. It's things like the jobs that culture allows that gender to do, social roles that that gender takes etc.
I don't know what that statement is supposed to mean. Third genders is transgender: People who wanted to, changed their gender to another gender. That was what the social construct of more than two genders enabled.
Changing their sex wasn't an option to them. Had the technology been available to them, they may have chosen to use it.
That's not an argument.
Final warning, any more lies that I've "conceded" etc, and this conversation will end. You can make arguments for your position. But don't lie about whether I've "conceded" something when I absolutely and abundantly clearly have not.
That kind of assumes there's a single queer culture. Drag is much much bigger in the US than it is in my country.P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostYou.... do understand berdache essentially means boy prostitute/reciever of Sodomy, right?
And that it has not a thing to do with gender but rather stereotypical "effeminate" homosexuals, right?
"Thwaites ([in] 1899...), for instance, defines berdaches, also to be referred to as transvestites, “as those persons, male or female who, while still young, assume the dress and habits of the opposite sex and retain them throughout their lives.”"
And you do know that intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism, right?
[quote\And that a so-called third gender would be the opposite of transgenderism (which works on a binary and claims that one can change one's gender to the other), right?[/quote]Nope. Third gender is a social mechanism to allow people to change their gender. If a transgender person today had been born into such a society, they would transition to the third (or fourth) gender.
And that Jesuits making second hand recordings of observations of other people who dont understand a foreign culture or what men and women's clothing in that culture are, is a pretty weak argument, right?
Plus, y'know, it's not like the native North American cultures were anything particularly unique in this regard. The stuff the Jesuits observed about their transgender and homosexual practices was similarly observed by many different explorers across Africa and Asia too. Most human cultures seem to have had the same 3rd/4th gender constructs to allow people to change gender, and subsequently to have same-sex marriages if they wished. Europe was actually the outlier in regard to having quite a strict two-genders, heterosexual-only culture."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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