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America's favorite idiot wants to suspend the constitution

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    But we can prove an actual misquote as the jumping off point. And I'm not claiming it was intentional - I believe it's what Jim "saw".
    I don't think so:

    Source: what Trump said"

    "A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution," he wrote. "Our great 'Founders' did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

    © Copyright Original Source



    Now claiming that him saying that his (falsely) current position "allows for... even those found in the constitution" isn't a call to suspend the contitution on his behalf is absolute nonsense on the part of those doing so. But hey, when we get to this level of utter nonsense and denial, we are long past the point logic or reason can have any effect.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

      You do, you just don't understand what hate looks like when it is you doing the hating.
      In other words, just more of your "I know what other people really mean" tea leaf reading.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

        I don't think so:

        Source: what Trump said"

        "A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution," he wrote. "Our great 'Founders' did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

        © Copyright Original Source



        Now claiming that him saying that his (falsely) current position "allows for... even those found in the constitution" isn't a call to suspend the contitution on his behalf is absolute nonsense on the part of those doing so. But hey, when we get to this level of utter nonsense and denial, we are long past the point logic or reason can have any effect.
        Trump is an idiot (and wrong). But in context, this wouldn't translate to suspending the constitution in it's entirety. It would be, in essence, installing him in Biden's place because he's the "rightful winner." That wouldn't impact congress, SCOTUS, bill of rights, or any of those other sections specified in the constitution.

        So, yes. He's talking about overruling the constitution WRT to the election he lost, but he's NOT talking about suspending it entirely and becoming a dictator.

        Again, OX, there's nuance you seem to be overlooking in your crusade.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          I don't think so:

          Source: what Trump said"

          "A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution," he wrote. "Our great 'Founders' did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

          © Copyright Original Source



          Now claiming that him saying that his (falsely) current position "allows for... even those found in the constitution" isn't a call to suspend the contitution on his behalf is absolute nonsense on the part of those doing so. But hey, when we get to this level of utter nonsense and denial, we are long past the point logic or reason can have any effect.
          No.

          Jim, there's a big difference between "calls for" and "allows for". Black and white. You misrepresented what he said, then "off to the races".

          And no amount of arguing can change the fact that you claimed he said something he did not say.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

            It is indeed one of most the common tack and theme of rightwing denial attempts. It has been the theme since Trump took office. But i was also pretty sure that in this reply you'd start trying the berate my use of the term ... just sayin




            On the contrary. The failure is both complete and continuous, with the continued denial of its danger and form the most recent examples of the same




            In the sense of preventing the certification of the votes and installing the losing candidate illegally - yes.




            Thankfully it did fail. But if by that you mean there was never any danger of it succeeding, or that Trump's continued lies about it do not present a continuing danger to the nation, you are sorely mistaken.
            wow

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              No.

              Jim, there's a big difference between "calls for" and "allows for". Black and white. You misrepresented what he said, then "off to the races".

              And no amount of arguing can change the fact that you claimed he said something he did not say.
              Yeah, "allows for" often means that something is being allowed to happen or that the situation allows something to happen in the future, while "calls for" means it needs to be done.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                Yeah, "allows for" often means that something is being allowed to happen or that the situation allows something to happen in the future, while "calls for" means it needs to be done.
                It's also unclear if Trump was saying that because the election was fraudulent, it allowed for the suspension of certain rules in order to right a wrong, or if he was saying that certain rules were suspended in order to allow a fraudulent election to stand. Since he went on to say that it's something our Founding Fathers would never condone, I'm inclined to think it's the latter, since I can't imagine our Founding Fathers ever condoning the suspension of the Constitution in whole or in part.
                Last edited by Mountain Man; 12-06-2022, 11:53 AM.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • I'm curious, was Lincoln an idiot and a danger to democracy when he suspended habeus corpus?
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    It's also unclear if Trump was saying that because the election was fraudulent, it allowed for the suspension of certain rules in order to right a wrong, or if he was saying that certain rules were suspended in order to allow a fraudulent election to stand. Since he went on to say that it's something our Founding Fathers would never condone inclines me to think it's the latter, since I can't imagine our Founding Fathers ever condoning the suspension of the Constitution in whole or in part.
                    I think both are rational ways to read the sentence(it's formulated rather ambiguously*), but I lean towards the latter too. I lean that way for two primary reasons. 1. He's notoriously bad at formulating his sentences. 2 I know people who also communicate in similar ways, and they've said things equally easy to misunderstand. My mom is very much like Trump in her capacity for speech. This leads to a lot of misunderstanding, sometimes with hilarious results. She also has no filter, and is passionate about what she does. This rubs a lot of people the wrong way, and this often leads them to portray her in terrible ways that don't match who she is. Both of them have criticism they deserve, and criticism they don't deserve.

                    *People both for and against Trump are reading it in both ways. This heavily implies ambiguity in the wording rather than partisanship only. Not that there isn't some level of partisanship involved in how people read such ambiguous statements.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
                      I'm curious, was Lincoln an idiot and a danger to democracy when he suspended habeus corpus?
                      I would say that the situations are hardly comparable. Was he an idiot? No. Was it dangerous to democracy? Quite possibly. The problem with many such actions is after they are done, the harm comes down to the character of the person utilizing such power.

                      However, there are MANY, MANY, MANY significant differences.

                      1. Lincoln's act wasn't unilateral, as congress had specifically given him this power through the Habeas Corpus Suspension act.
                      2. There was an active civil war going on, a unique situation in the country never since repeated.
                      3. Lincoln was actually president at the time, not an ex-president.
                      4. The act was ostensibly for the good of the war effort, and not for the personal goals of Lincoln's personal political career.

                      All of these factors make the two things very much incomparable in terms of judgement.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                        I would say that the situations are hardly comparable. Was he an idiot? No. Was it dangerous to democracy? Quite possibly. The problem with many such actions is after they are done, the harm comes down to the character of the person utilizing such power.

                        However, there are MANY, MANY, MANY significant differences.

                        1. Lincoln's act wasn't unilateral, as congress had specifically given him this power through the Habeas Corpus Suspension act.
                        2. There was an active civil war going on, a unique situation in the country never since repeated.
                        3. Lincoln was actually president at the time, not an ex-president.
                        4. The act was ostensibly for the good of the war effort, and not for the personal goals of Lincoln's personal political career.

                        All of these factors make the two things very much incomparable in terms of judgement.
                        The point is more is the Constitution suspendible in principle. I would disagree the Congress has the legitimate power to enable POTUS to suspend habeus corpus, even in the time of civil war. Habeus corpus is one most sacred rights that extends explicitly back to the Magna Carta.
                        P1) If , then I win.

                        P2)

                        C) I win.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                          The point is more is the Constitution suspendible in principle. I would disagree the Congress has the legitimate power to enable POTUS to suspend habeus corpus, even in the time of civil war. Habeus corpus is one most sacred rights that extends explicitly back to the Magna Carta.
                          I never said it was legitimate, only that Lincoln wasn't acting unilaterally when he did so. None of that was an endorsement of the suspension, but an explanation of why it's different than Trumps call.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                            Yeah, "allows for" often means that something is being allowed to happen or that the situation allows something to happen in the future, while "calls for" means it needs to be done.
                            But, when you want to make your point regardless of the facts, change the wording, then roll with that, and add your own bias for his intent.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              .............Some just dont care because their hatred of liberals runs so deep....
                              wow

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                No.

                                Jim, there's a big difference between "calls for" and "allows for". Black and white. You misrepresented what he said, then "off to the races".

                                And no amount of arguing can change the fact that you claimed he said something he did not say.
                                You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it might be. From a logic standpoint, if you are available to listen to such, he is claiming his situation 'allows for' - which means it somehow could warrant doing so. But then he adds that our founding fathers would not tolerate such 'flawed elections' which means good patriots certainly would not allow for such and would most certainly do what is allowed for to correct it.

                                There really is no way around it. He is saying his situation calls for the constitution to be suspended so the flawed election can be corrected. No true patriot would do any less.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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