Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Desantis revision of Native American history
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
Interesting response. In the scope of teaching the history of American history as an extension of European civilization, one can't possibly be unbiased unless the brutality of the Europeans treatment of the Indians is presented in its fullness.
To be clear, presenting that plainly is not 'anti-US bias', though it's plain teaching is embarrassing and shameful if one views the formation of the US as a purely good endeavor.
If the facts were "plainly taught", that would include the teaching of the conquests of Native Americans by others. That's largely ignored in the education system outside of the notorious Aztecs and it's also ignored by those who harp on land "stolen" by Europeans and the US.
The "purely good endeavor" isn't as pervasive as you might think.
OTOH, the fact it happened does not make the US itself inordinately evil either. The history of Humankind is filled with brutal stories of conquest one nation or people over another even from the advent of the written word.
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Are you physically incapable of resding?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
And what do you think we should do about it?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
And what do you think we should do about it?
An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.
Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Interesting question for further discussion. I would recommend first abiding in good faith to previous agreed treaties with Native American nations. Also acknowledging the reality of USA history including the egregious violation of Native Americans by forcing the children into Christian schools to ethnically cleanse them of their beliefs, language and cultural identity.
An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.
Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Interesting question for further discussion. I would recommend first abiding in good faith to previous agreed treaties with Native American nations. Also acknowledging the reality of USA history including the egregious violation of Native Americans by forcing the children into Christian schools to ethnically cleanse them of their beliefs, language and cultural identity.
An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.
Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?
That appears to be just fine with the local virtue signaling SJWs because the perpetrators aren't Americans of European decent.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
Education in the US in largely "to the test". Things like the Trail of Tears and the depopulation of the Americas (largely through the accidental spread of disease) are taught.
If the facts were "plainly taught", that would include the teaching of the conquests of Native Americans by others. That's largely ignored in the education system outside of the notorious Aztecs and it's also ignored by those who harp on land "stolen" by Europeans and the US.
The "purely good endeavor" isn't as pervasive as you might think.
The "stolen land" narrative intentionally excludes intra-Native conquest and is part of an overall "US is evil" narrative.
As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
I think your use of "ethnically cleanse" with regards to American missionaries is a real insult to those peoples who were actually murdered and left in mass graves.
Yes the Western Europeans actually murdered Native Americans in mass and sometimes left them in mass graves. Other times they left them for the buzzards.
IS the behavior of the Western Christian tribes any morally or spiritually superior to the Native American tribes? By the evidence I think not.
The Christin schools forced separation from their parents, ethnic cleansing and indoctrination of children in the USA and Canada up until very very recently is a very real upfront issue.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-28-2022, 09:46 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThere's also the fact that in some cases, when white settlers showed up, they were immediately attacked and killed by the natives instead of the latter making any attempt at a peaceful overture, which naturally led to the US taking up arms against them.
As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.
P1) If , then I win.
P2)
C) I win.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes the Western Europeans actually murdered Native Americans and sometimes left them in mass graves. Other times they left them for the buzzards.
Death by Civilization.
And, now... story time....
The Christin schools forced ethnic cleansing and indoctrination of children in the USA and Canada up until very very recently is a very real upfront issue.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Neither.
Absolutely.
And how do we respond to that without the cure being worse than the disease?
jim
My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
A lot of US education also promotes the idea that the natives were honorable "people of the land" and quintessential environmentalists -- the old stories about how they had a use for every part of the buffalo -- but glosses over the fact that they slaughtered animals by the hundreds and left the majority of the carcases to rot, and they were nomadic because they would strip the land until it could no longer support them, and they were forced to move or starve. US education also tends to paint all Native Americans as homogeneous when in reality, there were many diverse tribes that were frequently at war with each other. There's also the fact that in some cases, when white settlers showed up, they were immediately attacked and killed by the natives instead of the latter making any attempt at a peaceful overture, which naturally led to the US taking up arms against them
As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.
It's the liberal tendency to pigeonhole groups into categories and with Native Americans it's that they are a single group with a single shared history which is stereotyping at its worst.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
In fairness, the Native Americans in New England should have left the Pilgrims to die in the winter. Helping the invaders wasn't smart.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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