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Desantis revision of Native American history

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  • #76
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    I think argument was in fact that we didn't steal it because it was already stolen, but that could I suppose be roughly the equivalent of all land is stolen so it's no big deal.

    But to your point: what makes the US special is that we as a nation have set very high goals for ourselves and all nations wrt the respect for national sovereignty and human rights. We have preached these ideals for decades, and on many fronts modeled them - yet not without some level of hypocrisy.

    case in point: we became a nation by violating those same ideas wrt native Americans, and not all that long ago. So it's an issue that needs to be dealt with accurately and fairly. What we did to the native Americans was part of a certain European mindset that visited similar destruction across all of the America's north and south. But it is a violation of who we are now, or at least who and what we aspire to be in the world.
    And what do you think we should do about it?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

      Interesting response. In the scope of teaching the history of American history as an extension of European civilization, one can't possibly be unbiased unless the brutality of the Europeans treatment of the Indians is presented in its fullness.
      Education in the US in largely "to the test". Things like the Trail of Tears and the depopulation of the Americas (largely through the accidental spread of disease) are taught.

      To be clear, presenting that plainly is not 'anti-US bias', though it's plain teaching is embarrassing and shameful if one views the formation of the US as a purely good endeavor.

      If the facts were "plainly taught", that would include the teaching of the conquests of Native Americans by others. That's largely ignored in the education system outside of the notorious Aztecs and it's also ignored by those who harp on land "stolen" by Europeans and the US.


      The "purely good endeavor" isn't as pervasive as you might think.


      OTOH, the fact it happened does not make the US itself inordinately evil either. The history of Humankind is filled with brutal stories of conquest one nation or people over another even from the advent of the written word.
      The "stolen land" narrative intentionally excludes intra-Native conquest and is part of an overall "US is evil" narrative.

      P1) If , then I win.

      P2)

      C) I win.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Are you physically incapable of resding?
        Are you physically capable of responding coherently.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          And what do you think we should do about it?
          Learn from our mistakes and move forward?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            And what do you think we should do about it?
            Interesting question for further discussion. I would recommend first abiding in good faith to previous agreed treaties with Native American nations. Also acknowledging the reality of USA history including the egregious violation of Native Americans by forcing the children into Christian schools to ethnically cleanse them of their beliefs, language and cultural identity.

            An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.

            Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Interesting question for further discussion. I would recommend first abiding in good faith to previous agreed treaties with Native American nations. Also acknowledging the reality of USA history including the egregious violation of Native Americans by forcing the children into Christian schools to ethnically cleanse them of their beliefs, language and cultural identity.

              An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.

              Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?
              I think your use of "ethnically cleanse" with regards to American missionaries is a real insult to those peoples who were actually murdered and left in mass graves.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                Interesting question for further discussion. I would recommend first abiding in good faith to previous agreed treaties with Native American nations. Also acknowledging the reality of USA history including the egregious violation of Native Americans by forcing the children into Christian schools to ethnically cleanse them of their beliefs, language and cultural identity.

                An interesting issue is the Western Christian values and behavior any different or superior than nay other tribal culture of the world in history in how they relate to other cultures and races. My answer is tha no the behavior of the Western Christin tribes is no different than any other tribal culture of the world, and in some cases inferior in their interaction with other tribes and cultures in the past.

                Nonetheless the question remains did DeSantis lie pants on fire that the USA did not steal the lands?
                And yet we turn a blind eye to what the Chicoms are doing at this very moment to the people in western China. Putting them into re-education slave labor camps. Forcibly erasing their culture. Forced sterilizations. Summary executions.

                That appears to be just fine with the local virtue signaling SJWs because the perpetrators aren't Americans of European decent.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #83
                  Technically all US land was bought if you include military expenditures.
                  P1) If , then I win.

                  P2)

                  C) I win.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                    Education in the US in largely "to the test". Things like the Trail of Tears and the depopulation of the Americas (largely through the accidental spread of disease) are taught.




                    If the facts were "plainly taught", that would include the teaching of the conquests of Native Americans by others. That's largely ignored in the education system outside of the notorious Aztecs and it's also ignored by those who harp on land "stolen" by Europeans and the US.


                    The "purely good endeavor" isn't as pervasive as you might think.




                    The "stolen land" narrative intentionally excludes intra-Native conquest and is part of an overall "US is evil" narrative.
                    A lot of US education also promotes the idea that the natives were honorable "people of the land" and quintessential environmentalists -- the old stories about how they had a use for every part of the buffalo -- but glosses over the fact that they slaughtered animals by the hundreds and left the majority of the carcases to rot, and they were nomadic because they would strip the land until it could no longer support them, and they were forced to move or starve. US education also tends to paint all Native Americans as homogeneous when in reality, there were many diverse tribes that were frequently at war with each other. There's also the fact that in some cases, when white settlers showed up, they were immediately attacked and killed by the natives instead of the latter making any attempt at a peaceful overture, which naturally led to the US taking up arms against them

                    As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      I think your use of "ethnically cleanse" with regards to American missionaries is a real insult to those peoples who were actually murdered and left in mass graves.
                      The 'very real' insult is based on very real recent history.

                      Yes the Western Europeans actually murdered Native Americans in mass and sometimes left them in mass graves. Other times they left them for the buzzards.
                      IS the behavior of the Western Christian tribes any morally or spiritually superior to the Native American tribes? By the evidence I think not.

                      The Christin schools forced separation from their parents, ethnic cleansing and indoctrination of children in the USA and Canada up until very very recently is a very real upfront issue.

                      Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/traumatic-legacy-indian-boarding-schools/584293/



                      Thousands of Native American children were forced to attend boarding schools created to strip them of their culture. My mother was one of them.
                      By Mary Annette Pember

                      My mother died while surviving civilization. Although she outlived a traumatic childhood immersed in its teachings, she carried the pain of those lessons for her entire life. Like most Native American peoples, our family’s story is touched by the legacy of boarding schools, institutions created to destroy and vilify Native culture, language, family, and spirituality. My mother, Bernice, was a survivor of Saint Mary’s Catholic Indian Boarding School on the Ojibwe reservation in Odanah, Wisconsin. She called it the “Sister School,” a world ruled by nuns clad in long black robes.

                      Two hundred years ago, on March 3, 1819, the Civilization Fund Act ushered in an era of assimilationist policies, leading to the Indian boarding-school era, which lasted from 1860 to 1978. The act directly spurred the creation of the schools by putting forward the notion that Native culture and language were to blame for what was deemed the country’s “Indian problem.”

                      Native families were coerced by the federal government and Catholic Church officials into sending their children to live and attend classes at boarding schools. (About one-third of the 357 known Indian boarding schools were managed by various Christian denominations.) According to the Act’s text, Christian missionaries and other “persons of good moral character” were charged with introducing Native children to “the habits and arts of civilization” while encouraging them to abandon their traditional languages, cultures, and practices.dentified St. Mary’s students, circa 1935 (courtesy of Bad River Tribal Historic Preservations Office)
                      This is what achieving civilization looked like in practice: Students were stripped of all things associated with Native life. Their long hair, a source of pride for many Native peoples, was cut short, usually into identical bowl haircuts. They exchanged traditional clothing for uniforms, and embarked on a life influenced by strict military-style regimentation. Students were physically punished for speaking their Native languages. Contact with family and community members was discouraged or forbidden altogether. Survivors have described a culture of pervasive physical and sexual abuse at the schools. Food and medical attention were often scarce; many students died. Their parents sometimes learned of their death only after they had been buried in school cemeteries, some of which were unmarked.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-28-2022, 09:46 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        There's also the fact that in some cases, when white settlers showed up, they were immediately attacked and killed by the natives instead of the latter making any attempt at a peaceful overture, which naturally led to the US taking up arms against them.
                        In fairness, the Native Americans in New England should have left the Pilgrims to die in the winter. Helping the invaders wasn't smart.

                        As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.
                        Obviously the left wants their truth to be taught.

                        P1) If , then I win.

                        P2)

                        C) I win.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Yes the Western Europeans actually murdered Native Americans and sometimes left them in mass graves. Other times they left them for the buzzards.
                          Death by Civilization.
                          Focus, Frank.... you made the comment with regards to American missionaries --- you lumped them in with your allegations of mass murderers.

                          And, now... story time....

                          The Christin schools forced ethnic cleansing and indoctrination of children in the USA and Canada up until very very recently is a very real upfront issue.

                          Source: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/03/traumatic-legacy-indian-boarding-schools/584293/



                          Thousands of Native American children were forced to attend boarding schools created to strip them of their culture. My mother was one of them.
                          By Mary Annette Pember

                          My mother died while surviving civilization. Although she outlived a traumatic childhood immersed in its teachings, she carried the pain of those lessons for her entire life. Like most Native American peoples, our family’s story is touched by the legacy of boarding schools, institutions created to destroy and vilify Native culture, language, family, and spirituality. My mother, Bernice, was a survivor of Saint Mary’s Catholic Indian Boarding School on the Ojibwe reservation in Odanah, Wisconsin. She called it the “Sister School,” a world ruled by nuns clad in long black robes.

                          Two hundred years ago, on March 3, 1819, the Civilization Fund Act ushered in an era of assimilationist policies, leading to the Indian boarding-school era, which lasted from 1860 to 1978. The act directly spurred the creation of the schools by putting forward the notion that Native culture and language were to blame for what was deemed the country’s “Indian problem.”

                          Native families were coerced by the federal government and Catholic Church officials into sending their children to live and attend classes at boarding schools. (About one-third of the 357 known Indian boarding schools were managed by various Christian denominations.) According to the Act’s text, Christian missionaries and other “persons of good moral character” were charged with introducing Native children to “the habits and arts of civilization” while encouraging them to abandon their traditional languages, cultures, and practices.dentified St. Mary’s students, circa 1935 (courtesy of Bad River Tribal Historic Preservations Office)
                          This is what achieving civilization looked like in practice: Students were stripped of all things associated with Native life. Their long hair, a source of pride for many Native peoples, was cut short, usually into identical bowl haircuts. They exchanged traditional clothing for uniforms, and embarked on a life influenced by strict military-style regimentation. Students were physically punished for speaking their Native languages. Contact with family and community members was discouraged or forbidden altogether. Survivors have described a culture of pervasive physical and sexual abuse at the schools. Food and medical attention were often scarce; many students died. Their parents sometimes learned of their death only after they had been buried in school cemeteries, some of which were unmarked.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          You realize this is an editorial, not a research paper, yes? HOWEVER, apparently it was them thar dreaded Catholics who were at fault, so....

                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Neither.



                            Absolutely.



                            And how do we respond to that without the cure being worse than the disease?
                            Why would the cure necessarily be worse than the disease? And why would we not try to help those whose life and culture we destroyed (i.e. stole) find some measure of wholeness and success?

                            jim
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              A lot of US education also promotes the idea that the natives were honorable "people of the land" and quintessential environmentalists -- the old stories about how they had a use for every part of the buffalo -- but glosses over the fact that they slaughtered animals by the hundreds and left the majority of the carcases to rot, and they were nomadic because they would strip the land until it could no longer support them, and they were forced to move or starve. US education also tends to paint all Native Americans as homogeneous when in reality, there were many diverse tribes that were frequently at war with each other. There's also the fact that in some cases, when white settlers showed up, they were immediately attacked and killed by the natives instead of the latter making any attempt at a peaceful overture, which naturally led to the US taking up arms against them

                              As long as liberals like ox are demanding that the truth be taught, then let's teach the whole truth and not just the bits that make the Europeans out to be the sole villains. The fact is, there were moral evils committed by both sides.
                              The bolded part. I don't know how often I've heard how "Native Americans" did this or that when often it was just specific tribes. It's like in the old movies where every indian was walking about in a war bonnet that was worn on specific occasions by those in the northern Great Plains. But you see them among depictions of the meeting with the Pilgrims in New England to Apache in the American southwest.

                              It's the liberal tendency to pigeonhole groups into categories and with Native Americans it's that they are a single group with a single shared history which is stereotyping at its worst.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                                In fairness, the Native Americans in New England should have left the Pilgrims to die in the winter. Helping the invaders wasn't smart.
                                Actually if memory serves they got along quite well for about 50 years, until they took sides in a tribal war.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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