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Desantis revision of Native American history

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  • #61
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    You appear to be reading different responses than I did.

    Nobody is justifying the near eradication of Native Americans (which was mostly nondeliberate and the result of diseases) but rather are pointing out that the taking control of land through less than peaceful means was hardly unique or started with the arrival of European settlers (we were simply far more efficient and effective at doing it).


    It seems that you are reading things into what was said.


    It is what happens whenever a large powerful group moves into new lands. Look at the migration of various Germanic and Slavic people into Europe in the early Middle Ages. Should the Huns living in Hungary or the Lombards in northern Italy constantly wring their hands over the fact that they took their lands through violence, slaughtering the inhabitants -- likely from a people who did the same thing to earlier inhabitants?

    You can even see the same thing taking place today, in western China, as the Han continue to exterminate or assimilate the Uyghurs and other western Chinese people and take control of their lands. But we seem far more concerned with what happened a century ago and earlier and which cannot be undone than with what is taking place here and now.
    I don't think any student of history would deny it happens. The issue at hand is should we be proud of it, or should we try to deny it happened. If we are to be a just and good society, we must acknowledge it was done, and that it was a bad thing to do.

    A second issue at hand is are there those whose lives are still diminished because it happened.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 11-28-2022, 07:46 AM.
    Don’t waste your time with explanations, people only hear what they want to hear.
    --- Paulo Coelho

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    • #62
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

      Hi Frank. I've read the responses in a bit of disbelief ... as if the fact internal tribal warfare existed somehow makes the decimation of those same tribal civilizations by Europeans acceptable or justified. Or that somehow the fact internal tribal warfare existed makes the fact this decimation occurred somehow less true.

      What happened here to the native Americans, and in many other parts of the world through slavery and other atrocities at the hand European power and arrogance, the utter disregard for basic humanity and what we now call human rights, is in fact something to be ashamed of, not hidden, and definitely not painted over with a mythology of justifed conquest.


      Jim
      Instead of casting vague aspirations against other posters, as is your habit, how about, instead, you provide direct quotes where anybody here has declared the treatment of Native Americans by early settlers as "acceptable or justified" or "somehow less true". Let's see you present some specifics instead of cowardly hiding behind your broad brush accusation.
      Last edited by Mountain Man; 11-28-2022, 08:18 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

        I think you are oversimplying. The wrongs committed were quite majorly wrong, independent of party, and by any viable judeo/christian ethic. Further we have for generations painted over that history with mythologies where the Europeans are always the 'good guys'. Yet there are, in fact, whole populations that still suffer to this very day because of what was done. It is not a trivial or long lost sin, but rather one with significant consequences in the here and now. A just society, a society that could perhaps fairly claim "in God We Trust" , can not just turn a blind eye to such things.

        So arguing that we weren't somehow 'actually steeling' is a dodge - and a poor one at that.
        I don't think anyone has said it wasn't "actually stealing", it goes back to "What makes the US special" given that virtually all land is "stolen" (i.e. conquered) from someone else?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          I don't think any student of history would deny it happens. The issue at hand is should we be proud of it, or should we try to deny it happened. If we are to be a just and good society, we must acknowledge it was done, and that it was a bad thing to do.

          A second issue at hand is are there those whose lives are still diminished because it happened.
          The point Jim is that men have been doing such things to each other since we have had recorded history, we even find this behavior in our closest primate cousins. So why point the finger at Europeans?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

            Except here's the thing. In the scope of teaching the history of American history, the brutality of European behavior IS taught in every school I know of. What tends to NOT be taught is the brutality of Native behavior toward one another before Europeans arrived and even after. What ALSO tends to not be taught is native involvement in slavery.
            Exactly!!!!!
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

              I don't think any student of history would deny it happens. The issue at hand is should we be proud of it, or should we try to deny it happened. If we are to be a just and good society, we must acknowledge it was done, and that it was a bad thing to do.

              A second issue at hand is are there those whose lives are still diminished because it happened.
              Can you point to a school where this isn't already taught?

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #67
                Originally posted by seer View Post

                The point Jim is that men have been doing such things to each other since we have had recorded history, we even find this behavior in our closest primate cousins. So why point the finger at Europeans?
                Lack of the politically correct amount of melanin?

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                  Except here's the thing. In the scope of teaching the history of American history, the brutality of European behavior IS taught in every school I know of. What tends to NOT be taught is the brutality of Native behavior toward one another before Europeans arrived and even after. What ALSO tends to not be taught is native involvement in slavery.
                  I'm not sure why, in the scope of American history, it would be necessary to point out that tribal warfare could be brutal in the context of European brutality against them. Is the point to say European brutality was somehow just or excusable because the native tribal wars could also be brutal? And why would one point out that tribal warfare could be brutal without also pointing out the many good elements of Native American life prior to the Europeans arrival?

                  But you may well be correct that a balanced understanding of native American life prior to European arrival should be part of an American history class.

                  Jim
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 11-28-2022, 08:40 AM.
                  Don’t waste your time with explanations, people only hear what they want to hear.
                  --- Paulo Coelho

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                    But you may well be correct that a balanced understanding of native American life prior to European arrival should be part of an American history class.

                    Jim
                    But it is not taught, because like this thread, and in popular culture, Europeans and whites in general, are singled out as being particularly evil.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I think the problem is trying to retroactively assign our modern moral values regarding sovereignty to past civilizations. Chrono-snobbery.

                      What we now call stealing, they called "Manifest Destiny" for example.


                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        I don't think any student of history would deny it happens. The issue at hand is should we be proud of it, or should we try to deny it happened.
                        Neither.

                        If we are to be a just and good society, we must acknowledge it was done, and that it was a bad thing to do.
                        Absolutely.

                        A second issue at hand is are there those whose lives are still diminished because it happened.
                        And how do we respond to that without the cure being worse than the disease?

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                          I don't think any student of history would deny it happens. The issue at hand is should we be proud of it, or should we try to deny it happened. If we are to be a just and good society, we must acknowledge it was done, and that it was a bad thing to do.

                          A second issue at hand is are there those whose lives are still diminished because it happened.
                          And who here is expressing pride, or denying it happened?

                          How about some direct quotes instead of these vague accusations.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            https://www.rferl.org/a/purchased-te.../28801930.html

                            US.jpg
                            "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                            "
                            Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                              I don't think anyone has said it wasn't "actually stealing", it goes back to "What makes the US special" given that virtually all land is "stolen" (i.e. conquered) from someone else?
                              I think argument was in fact that we didn't steal it because it was already stolen, but that could I suppose be roughly the equivalent of all land is stolen so it's no big deal.

                              But to your point: what makes the US special is that we as a nation have set very high goals for ourselves and all nations wrt the respect for national sovereignty and human rights. We have preached these ideals for decades, and on many fronts modeled them - yet not without some level of hypocrisy.

                              case in point: we became a nation by violating those same ideas wrt native Americans, and not all that long ago. So it's an issue that needs to be dealt with accurately and fairly. What we did to the native Americans was part of a certain European mindset that visited similar destruction across all of the America's north and south. But it is a violation of who we are now, or at least who and what we aspire to be in the world.
                              Don’t waste your time with explanations, people only hear what they want to hear.
                              --- Paulo Coelho

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                                So it's an issue that needs to be dealt with accurately and fairly.
                                How?

                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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