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If Christian Nationalism Succeeded

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Not needed to question posts concerning the topic.
    Why can't you address the posts? Why the impotence?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      Why can't you address the posts? Why the impotence?
      Not needed to question posts concerning the topic. Start a thread and I will address that topic, All other questions answered specifically and clearly.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        Not needed to question posts concerning the topic. Start a thread and I will address that topic, All other questions answered specifically and clearly.
        Ah, you're scared to answer the questions. Gotcha.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

          Ah, you're scared to answer the questions. Gotcha.
          Originally posted by eider View Post

          I think Paul was an extremist nut. He never wrote a line about anything that Jesus said or did, save for the last meal and hours, Paul was in to Paul and his churches. There are some groups that do follow what Jesus said and did, so I hear. The Ebionites maybe? But I know nothing about them, there ain't any around here.

          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          Skeat's 1995 paper "Was papyrus regarded as « cheap » or « expensive » in the ancient world?" published in Aegyptus is available and refers to Schubart's 1961 Das Buch bei den Greichen und Römern where Skeat discusses Schubart's confusion between a roll and a sheet. Skeat also points out that virtually all our evidence comes from Egypt.
          Off topic.
          P1) If , then I win.

          P2)

          C) I win.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

            Ah, you're scared to answer the questions. Gotcha.
            No, Not needed to question posts concerning the topic. Start a thread and I will address that topic, All other relevant questions were answered specifically and clearly.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              First, Paul wasn't as concerned with Jesus' earthly mission as he was His heavenly promise so that's what he emphasized. His emphasis was bringing the message of the crucified Messiah and trying to keep people focused on that (keep their eyes on the prize, so to speak).

              Second, his letters were to Christian converts who undoubtedly were already familiar with aspects of Jesus' life already. Paper and ink were very expensive and there's no use covering old ground.

              Third, take a look at the non-Pauline epistles. You might notice that they weren't exactly replete with stories about Jesus' life or quotes either. Like Paul's letters, they were to people who were likely familiar with that so no need to waste time discussing what they already knew.

              Fourth, Paul's letters usually were in response to certain situations that arose in the community. That was their focus.

              Fifth, you are forced to overlook things like the opening of I Corinthians 15; Philippians 2:5 as well as all of the places that Paul dealt with many of the events in Jesus’ life such as His death, burial, resurrection, trial before Pilate, birth according to the seed of David, and the overarching fact that He took on the form of a human.
              So, you're rating that claim "Pants on Fire"?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                So, you're rating that claim "Pants on Fire"?
                Let's just say he wasn't aware of the facts of the case.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Skeat's 1995 paper "Was papyrus regarded as « cheap » or « expensive » in the ancient world?" published in Aegyptus is available and refers to Schubart's 1961 Das Buch bei den Greichen und Römern where Skeat discusses Schubart's confusion between a roll and a sheet. Skeat also points out that virtually all our evidence comes from Egypt.
                  So nothing about the massive papyrus shortage during Tiberias' time that caused prices to skyrocket and put distribution under Roman government control?

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    So nothing about the massive papyrus shortage during Tiberias' time that caused prices to skyrocket and put distribution under Roman government control?
                    What about toilet paper?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Correct me if I'm wrong but does Skeat calculate that there were about 20 sheet in a roll of papyrus? And that the price for a roll ran between 2 to 5 drachmae at that time.

                      Apparently a single drachmae was a day's wages for a skilled worker, and here is an article calculating comparable cost

                      Comparable value

                      Article in Wikipedia says some economists and historians say one drachma in the 5th century (let me do a mental calculation – – that would be from about 499BC to 401BC) was about US$25 in 1990 or US$46.50 in 2015.

                      Classical historians give a different read for the 5th and 4th centuries (okay, mental math time, so that would be from around 499BC to 301BC, the 400s and 300s). In that time, one drachma would be around one days wages for a skilled worker or a hoplite. So that would not be minimum wage, but more along the line of a carpenter or mason.

                      Some historians say that half a drachma per day would be a comfortable subsistence for a poor family. That would be about 182.5 drachmas for a year for poor people.

                      The rough valuation of one drachma based on the Wikipedia article are:
                      • one day wages for skilled worker
                      • US$25 in 1990
                      • two days subsistence living standard for poor family

                      On the other hand, Professor Frank Holt provides a rough comparability of two drachmae being equal to about one days wages for a skilled worker. Here are two data points:
                      • At Kindle location 1782 the comment says Alexander capped the cost of a banquet at 10,000 drachmas which is 5,000 days pay for a skilled Greek construction worker.
                      • Location 1797 says guests at a banquet could eat 160 drachma of food which was 80 days pay for a mercenary of the day.

                      So that gives a valuation of 2 drachmaes equaling a days pay for a skill construction worker or hired military soldier. I’m comfortable using an additional comparison of half a drachma as poor living for a poor family.


                      $25 in 1990 would be $57 today.

                      No matter how you slice it, a sheet of papyrus was not cheap and not to be squandered unnecessarily by anyone but the rich.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • I did have a serious point to linking to that book blurb.

                        If an organization identifying as Christian nationalist did succeed in reaching power, average evangelicals may not like the result. They'd not be the ones agitating for such power so the fact that evangelicals don't all agree on certain political issues would be of little import. So I have to end up disagreeing with what I posted much earlier in the thread.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I did have a serious point to linking to that book blurb.

                          If an organization identifying as Christian nationalist did succeed in reaching power, average evangelicals may not like the result. They'd not be the ones agitating for such power so the fact that evangelicals don't all agree on certain political issues would be of little import. So I have to end up disagreeing with what I posted much earlier in the thread.
                          It just seems to me that the "triumphal entry" was so clearly NOT political, and the fact that the mob wanted to seize Jesus after the feeding of the 5,000 and make Him King - and He wouldn't allow that.... the fact that it's so clear that God's Kingdom is "not of this world" --- I wonder how many Christians like me would "just say no" to somebody who wanted to address the sin problem through political means.

                          (thinking out loud)
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            You're right, Frank, he should be much more reasonable, cogent and always on target like you.
                            CP I think you forgot something shiny needs there sarcasm tags or he may take this seriosly

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              My remark was with regard to the man who founded Christianity as a new cult. To believe what Jesus of Nazareth believed would require converting to Judaism. The Ebionites are thought to have been a link with those followers of a real Galilean Jew and they certainly had no time for Paul. They were also persecuted by the early Christian church.
                              Yes...... to all.
                              Paul wasn't interested in Jesus. Didn't write anything about his real mission at all.
                              And 'yes', Jesus definitely wanted the old laws put back in place...... I think the Priests had ignored such as the poor laws for a long time.

                              I'm sad that there isn't more knowledge about the Ebionites, I guess that most of it got trashed by the new churches.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                First, Paul wasn't as concerned with Jesus' earthly mission as he was His heavenly promise so that's what he emphasized. His emphasis was bringing the message of the crucified Messiah and trying to keep people focused on that (keep their eyes on the prize, so to speak).
                                Paul wasn't concerned with Jesus in life at all..........Nothing! Apart from a last meal and hours. Nothing. He didn't even remind his readers about Jesus had said!

                                Second, his letters were to Christian converts who undoubtedly were already familiar with aspects of Jesus' life already. Paper and ink were very expensive and there's no use covering old ground.
                                Ha ha! That's a new one....... I never reminded folks about what Jesus said 'cos my pen was short of ink, my parchment was small....... but I wasted loads in rants.

                                Third, take a look at the non-Pauline epistles. You might notice that they weren't exactly replete with stories about Jesus' life or quotes either. Like Paul's letters, they were to people who were likely familiar with that so no need to waste time discussing what they already knew.
                                Only a name and the claim of life everlasting was required, I expect. Maybe that was why G-Mark became, I reckon that most of that gospel was about Cephas's memoirs...he sure was aggravated by the way that everything had turned out.

                                Fourth, Paul's letters usually were in response to certain situations that arose in the community. That was their focus.
                                If you are suggesting that Paul had no interest in spreading the history of Jesus and what he said and did, then I absolutely agree with you.
                                But that suggests that he had no interest in conversion at all......... interesting.

                                Fifth, you are forced to overlook things like the opening of I Corinthians 15; Philippians 2:5 as well as all of the places that Paul dealt with many of the events in Jesus’ life such as His death, burial, resurrection, trial before Pilate, birth according to the seed of David, and the overarching fact that He took on the form of a human.
                                The only aspects of or about Jesus that Paul needed. A life after death, communion, but not much else was required, I guess.



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