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What did the Ukrainian army find when the liberated Kherson?

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  • What did the Ukrainian army find when the liberated Kherson?

    A previous poster made the rather absurd Putin apologist claim that the 'Ukrainians were 'caught' between the Russian and Ukrainian.' The reality was starkly different when the Ukrainian army entered Kherson the enthusiastic cheers of Ukrainian citizens, and discovered the horrific nightmares of Russian occupation.

    Source: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/18/1137473863/ukraine-kherson-alleged-torture-russia



    Screams from Russia's alleged torture basements still haunt Ukraine's Kherson

    November 18, 202210:09 AM ET
    JASON BEAUBIEN

    KHERSON, Ukraine — Just talking in Ukrainian could get them arrested and even tortured, residents say. Displaying a Ukrainian flag was out of the question. They say they suffered daily indignities and lived in fear during the Russian occupation of this southern Ukrainian city.

    "People didn't go into the streets," except to buy basics like food, says Maryna Zinevych, a 54-year-old who's lived in Kherson all her life. "We were under constant pressure, constant watch."

    These were just some of the chilling accounts from residents in Kherson after 8 1/2 months under Russian occupation.

    Ukrainians dance in Kherson's streets at the end of Russia's months-long occupation


    Today, Ukrainians are celebrating and singing patriotic songs in the main square, one week after Russian forces retreated. But from behind the carnival atmosphere, a picture is emerging of what citizens endured under Russian rule. They describe instances of detention and abuse amid a climate of terror and suspicion.
    "We heard these crazy screams at night"


    As Zinevych speaks to NPR in the city's Liberty Square, she wears a shimmering Ukrainian flag wrapped around her shoulders like a shawl. Residents all around her celebrate the Russian withdrawal. People are taking selfies with a plump watermelon — a symbol of Kherson.

    Maryna Zinevych, 54, in the central square of Kherson on Wednesday. "People didn't go into the streets," except to buy basics like food, says Zinevych of life under Russian occupation. "We were under constant pressure, constant watch."

    Jason Beaubien/NPR

    The joyous scene would have been impossible just eight days ago, before Ukrainian forces took back control.

    Zinevych says the Kremlin-installed authorities were constantly on the lookout for people they deemed "partisan" — anyone who might pass information to Ukrainian authorities that could undermine the occupation.

    And in public, everyone had to speak Russian.

    "For [speaking] the Ukrainian language or [showing] Ukrainian symbols, you could be taken to the basement and tortured," she says. By "basement" she means detention centers set up by the Russian forces.

    One such facility was at a police station on the northern side of Kherson near the Antonivskiy Bridge.

    Mariya Kryvoruchko, who lives a half a block from the police station, remembers some terrifying moments.

    "We heard these crazy screams at night," Kryvoruchko says. "There were shouts from the jail of people being tortured at night. In the summer when you opened the window, we heard it very well."

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-19-2022, 09:17 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    What did the Russians do when they left Kherson?

    They destroyed all the utilities with winter approaching. This is an attack on the civilians, and not military targets as with the attempts to destroy the Utilities in many Ukraine cities..
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      What did the Russians do when they left Kherson?

      They destroyed all the utilities with winter approaching. This is an attack on the civilians, and not military targets as with the attempts to destroy the Utilities in many Ukraine cities..
      Russian war strategy involves using winter as a weapon. It has been this way for hundreds of years. That isn't excusing it but just pointing out that it should be expected.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Russian war strategy involves using winter as a weapon. It has been this way for hundreds of years. That isn't excusing it but just pointing out that it should be expected.
        Yes, the winter has been a weapon throughout history. You may ask Napoleon, The Ukraine Army has not been dependent on local untiities throughout their liberation of Russian occupied Ukraine. It will be the Russian army that will suffer the most in the winter, because of long supply lines and distance from Russia. The primary reason they abandoned Kherson was supply line issues of the river barrier to supply, and of course the long torturous frontline east of the river was not defendable.

        It will be the civilian population that will suffer disproportionately to the destruction of utilities in the cities.

        Do you consider the position of Ukraine and Russia equal at fault and war crimes as some have asserted?
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-19-2022, 02:28 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Russian war strategy involves using winter as a weapon. It has been this way for hundreds of years. That isn't excusing it but just pointing out that it should be expected.
          This isn't a war strategy, it's an attack on civilians. Which is par for the course with Russia who has been attacking the civilian populace they claim they invaded to 'liberate', since the very beginning.
          "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
          -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


          "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
          - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            Yes, the winter has been a weapon throughout history. You may ask Napoleon, The Ukraine Army has not been dependent on local untiities throughout their liberation of Russian occupied Ukraine. It will be the Russian army that will suffer the most in the winter, because of long supply lines and distance from Russia. The primary reason they abandoned Kherson was supply line issues of the river barrier to supply, and of course the long torturous frontline east of the river was not defendable.

            It will be the civilian population that will suffer disproportionately to the destruction of utilities in the cities.

            Do you consider the position of Ukraine and Russia equal at fault and war crimes as some have asserted?
            I'm just saying that the Russians see winter as an ally and weapon and "use" it that way, so this (destroying city infrastructure and the like) is not to be unexpected.

            That is not to excuse it.

            Personally, I don't think the Russians even consider the effect on civilians when they start waging a scorched earth policy, limited or in full. It appears that they assume any opponent will respond like they will -- simply seize all available working utilities for their needs and screw everyone else. These things are seen as military assets and nothing more.

            IOW, in their minds, the civilians will lose everything regardless. Whether they (the Russian military) destroys it or the opposing army take it, doesn't matter. Either way the civilians wont have or benefit from it. Thus, under that reasoning, it is best to destroy it and keep it out of enemy hands.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post


              Do you consider the position of Ukraine and Russia equal at fault and war crimes as some have asserted?
              Where there is a war, there are war crimes. The invader gets to choose whether there will be war* and its associated crimes. The invaded doesn't. Ergo: the invader gets the blame for its own crimes and half the blame for those of the invaded.

              *assuming there is no real and immediate threat.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Where there is a war, there are war crimes. The invader gets to choose whether there will be war* and its associated crimes. The invaded doesn't. Ergo: the invader gets the blame for its own crimes and half the blame for those of the invaded.

                *assuming there is no real and immediate threat.
                t
                Yes, war crimes were committed by both sides is clearly and specifically acknowledged in previous threads, Please review the evidence concerning disproportionate high rate of war crimes committed by Russia when compared to the Ukrainian army. For example mass graves of tortured and executed civilians have been found in the cities liberated by Ukrainians. The reference concerning war crimes described in detail the torture chambers and still missing civilians not found yet. No such mass graves and torture chambers have been remotely attributed to Ukrainians. Also the Russians have executed and tortured more prisoners of war far greater than anything the Ukrainians have,

                Also an untold number of children have been kidnapped and taken to Russia.

                It you dispute this please provide references that document any sort of equivalence of war crimes of Russians versus Ukrainians. I can and will cite more references that document my view.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I'm just saying that the Russians see winter as an ally and weapon and "use" it that way, so this (destroying city infrastructure and the like) is not to be unexpected.

                  That is not to excuse it.

                  Personally, I don't think the Russians even consider the effect on civilians when they start waging a scorched earth policy, limited or in full. It appears that they assume any opponent will respond like they will -- simply seize all available working utilities for their needs and screw everyone else. These things are seen as military assets and nothing more.

                  IOW, in their minds, the civilians will lose everything regardless. Whether they (the Russian military) destroys it or the opposing army take it, doesn't matter. Either way the civilians wont have or benefit from it. Thus, under that reasoning, it is best to destroy it and keep it out of enemy hands.
                  There is no evidence that the Ukrainians have selectively targeted non-military targets in the manner the Russians have. As previously cited the Russians have given a great priority of civilian targets such as schools, shopping centers, hospitals, and apartment buildings. As in the made assertions in the previous thread you have presented no evidence that the Ukrainians have given this overwhelming priority of civilian targets.

                  Still waiting for documented references to support your bald assertions.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    t
                    Yes, war crimes were committed by both sides is clearly and specifically acknowledged in previous threads, Please review the evidence concerning disproportionate high rate of war crimes committed by Russia when compared to the Ukrainian army. For example mass graves of tortured and executed civilians have been found in the cities liberated by Ukrainians. The reference concerning war crimes described in detail the torture chambers and still missing civilians not found yet. No such mass graves and torture chambers have been remotely attributed to Ukrainians. Also the Russians have executed and tortured more prisoners of war far greater than anything the Ukrainians have,

                    Also an untold number of children have been kidnapped and taken to Russia.

                    It you dispute this please provide references that document any sort of equivalence of war crimes of Russians versus Ukrainians. I can and will cite more references that document my view.
                    I addressed the your immediate question. Please point out the points in my post that address the other issues that you make mention of here.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      There is no evidence that the Ukrainians have selectively targeted non-military targets in the manner the Russians have. As previously cited the Russians have given a great priority of civilian targets such as schools, shopping centers, hospitals, and apartment buildings. As in the made assertions in the previous thread you have presented no evidence that the Ukrainians have given this overwhelming priority of civilian targets.

                      Still waiting for documented references to support your bald assertions.
                      That would be due to the fact that the war is being fought in Ukraine. If Ukraine was the one with the bigger army and invaded Russia I'm not sure that their military philosophy would be any different if they were in the same position that Russia is currently in.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        That would be due to the fact that the war is being fought in Ukraine. If Ukraine was the one with the bigger army and invaded Russia I'm not sure that their military philosophy would be any different if they were in the same position that Russia is currently in.
                        No such 'fact' exists. Please provide references documenting Ukrainian war crimes on the scale of the Russian war crimes.

                        Still waiting for documented references to support your bald assertions.

                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          I addressed the your immediate question. Please point out the points in my post that address the other issues that you make mention of here.
                          No you DID NOT address the immediate question concerning the extreme disproportionate level of war crimes committed by Russia,


                          Still waiting for documented references concerning the immediate question.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That would be due to the fact that the war is being fought in Ukraine.
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            No such 'fact' exists.
                            So in shuny-land it isn't a fact that the war is being waged in Ukraine? Have you become a full-blown Putin apologist?


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              So in shuny-land it isn't a fact that the war is being waged in Ukraine?
                              That is the fact you claimed. You need to consider your whole statement to be relevant. Proposing IF is not a 'fact'. This reflects the 'fact' that you have not presenting any sources that back you 'full-blown Putin apologist position.

                              That would be due to the fact that the war is being fought in Ukraine. If Ukraine was the one with the bigger army and invaded Russia I'm not sure that their military philosophy would be any different if they were in the same position that Russia is currently in.
                              The extreme disproportionate war crimes is not due to the war being fought in Ukraine. The war crimes are responsibility of Putin and the Russian army regardless of where it was fought, IF does not represent facts.

                              Have you become a full-blown Putin apologist?
                              You are the full-blown Putin apologist. based on your posts.

                              You have refused to answer the 'immediate question' of this thread and the previous thread: Do you acknowledge the extreme disproportionate war crimes committed by Putin's Russian army?
                              Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-20-2022, 10:32 AM.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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