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CPAC ambiguous support for Putin

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    If it was a "minor point" then why did you choose to make that "minor point" the title of the topic and post an article whose headline is about that "minor point" and spent more time on that "minor point" than anything else?
    Read the whole article. I posted it in its entire text, because it did cover the Republican limited yes/no view of the Russian invasion, which is the elephant in the room that needs to be responded to.

    Actually the post, though not the official view of CPAC reflects the underlying problem of the Republican view of the Russian invasion. The Pope, and Tweb posters like Mountain man also reflect this ambiguous view of the Russian invasion even to the extent that Ukraine and NATO share responsibility of the Russian invasion. Also some have the deluded claim that the Ukraine and Russia are equal parties in the war crimes committed in the war

    Yes, the elephant in the room is the ambiguous view of many Conservative Republicans concerning Putin and the Russian invasion. Note the title of the thread 'CPAC ambiguous support of Putin.'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2022, 11:29 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      Being opposed to supporting Zelinsky's corruption should not be misconstrued as support for Putin. They're both dirty, but the left has been desperately trying to rehabilitate Zelinsky's image ever since the invasion started, so naturally you're going to see some pushback from those of us who can remember events from more than a week ago.
      To add: I do not believe that anyone is supporting Zelinski's corruption, but the issue is Russian imperialist goals in Eastern Europe to dominate Eastern Europe at all costs exemplified by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing war crimes committed by Russia so extreme, nothing compares to it since Hitler's and the Soviet rape of Europe in WWII during and after WWII.

      Your failure to respond to this and describe the war crimes by Russia an Ukraine are equivalent is an unbelievable cold dismissal of the suffering, extermination and kidnapping of the Ukraniane people. .Also the deliberate and methodical leveling of many Ukrainiane cities and towns as part of a scorched earth policy of the Soviet military.

      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

        To add: I do not believe that anyone is supporting Zelinski's corruption, but the issue is Russian imperialist goals in Eastern Europe to dominate Eastern Europe at all costs exemplified by the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing war crimes committed by Russia so extreme, nothing compares to it since Hitler's and the Soviet rape of Europe in WWII during and after WWII.

        Your failure to respond to this and describe the war crimes by Russia an Ukraine are equivalent is an unbelievable cold dismissal of the suffering, extermination and kidnapping of the Ukraniane people. .Also the deliberate and methodical leveling of many Ukrainiane cities and towns as part of a scorched earth policy of the Soviet military.
        I'm not convinced that the Ukrainian people are getting much benefit if any from the billions of dollars being put into Zelinsky's corrupt little hands. It's like handing money to a mob boss and thinking it's going to be used for good. Certainly we should be doing what we can for the innocent victims on both sides of this conflict, but this is not the way to do it.

        Let's put it this way: would you be in favor of Putin being given billions in US aid to help the innocent Russian citizens who have been hurt in this war? Of course you wouldn't because Putin is a megalomaniac who would use the money to enrich himself and his political allies. I oppose giving money to Zelinsky for the same reason.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          I'm not convinced that the Ukrainian people are getting much benefit if any from the billions of dollars being put into Zelinsky's corrupt little hands. It's like handing money to a mob boss and thinking it's going to be used for good. Certainly we should be doing what we can for the innocent victims on both sides of this conflict, but this is not the way to do it.

          Let's put it this way: would you be in favor of Putin being given billions in US aid to help the innocent Russian citizens who have been hurt in this war? Of course you wouldn't because Putin is a megalomaniac who would use the money to enrich himself and his political allies. I oppose giving money to Zelinsky for the same reason.
          The bottom line is they will be freed from the brutal ethnic cleansing and domination by Russian imperialism. Russia loosing out and their military degraded beyond recovery for many years will make it well worth the dollars. Russia will likely lose control of other Asian and Eastern Europe Republics that they have progressively squeezing into the Soviet empire.

          You still have acknowledged the plight of the Ukrainian people as a result of the extreme ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people by the Russian invasion.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            The bottom line is they will be freed from the brutal ethnic cleansing and domination by Russian imperialism. Russia loosing out and their military degraded beyond recovery for many years will make it well worth the dollars. Russia will likely lose control of other Asian and Eastern Europe Republics that they have progressively squeezing into the Soviet empire.

            You still have acknowledged the plight of the Ukrainian people as a result of the extreme ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people by the Russian invasion.
            You are ignorant of history. Ukraine has blood on its own hands from crimes committed against Ukrainian citizens, especially Russian nationals. Putin is not a good guy, but neither is Zelinsky.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              You are ignorant of history. Ukraine has blood on its own hands from crimes committed against Ukrainian citizens, especially Russian nationals. Putin is not a good guy, but neither is Zelinsky.
              The bottom line is they will be freed from the brutal ethnic cleansing and domination by Russian imperialism. Russia loosing out and their military degraded beyond recovery for many years will make it well worth the dollars. Russia will likely lose control of other Asian and Eastern Europe Republics that they have progressively squeezing into the Soviet empire.

              You still have acknowledged the plight of the Ukrainian people as a result of the extreme ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people by the Russian invasion far beyond anything Ukraine committed
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                What's amusing is you think you have any standing to tell someone else they are promoting a conspiracy theory given your posting history.
                What conspiracy?
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                  The bottom line is they will be freed from the brutal ethnic cleansing and domination by Russian imperialism. Russia loosing out and their military degraded beyond recovery for many years will make it well worth the dollars. Russia will likely lose control of other Asian and Eastern Europe Republics that they have progressively squeezing into the Soviet empire.

                  You still have acknowledged the plight of the Ukrainian people as a result of the extreme ethnic cleansing of the Ukrainian people by the Russian invasion far beyond anything Ukraine committed
                  I've done what you can, but you appear determined to wallow in your abject ignorance.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    That's what I get for posting first thing in the morning without my glasses. Of course I meant I've done what I can, but you appear determined to wallow in your abject ignorance.

                    You seem blissfully unaware of the atrocities that Ukraine has committed, not only before the war, but during it. A number of civilian casualties have been at the hands of Ukraine's own army who has been using civilians as human shields and even, on several occasions, actively prevented innocents from evacuating combat zones.

                    This is essentially a mob war, and the US has no business paying off one of the mob bosses to keep the conflict going.
                    Last edited by Mountain Man; 10-05-2022, 05:52 AM.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      That's what I get for posting first thing in the morning without my glasses. Of course I meant I've done what I can, but you appear determined to wallow in your abject ignorance.

                      You seem blissfully unaware of the atrocities that Ukraine has committed, not only before the war, but during it. A number of civilian casualties have been at the hands of Ukraine's own army who has been using civilians as human shields and even, on several occasions, actively prevented innocents from evacuating combat zones.

                      This is essentially a mob war, and the US has no business paying off one of the mob bosses to keep the conflict going.
                      As I said I clearly and specifically acknowledge the atrocities committed by Ukraine. What you have failed to acknowledge is the 10,000 to one atrocities and war crimes committed by Russia in the imperialist invasion of Ukraine following a pattern of Russia's plan to dominate Eastern Europe as the stated plans of all Russian leaders since the Czars.

                      You have not acknowledged the scorched earth policy of Russia to level and destroy cities and towns targeting hospitals, schools, residential areas and shopping malls. The kidnapping of of over 100,000 children. The execution of untold numbers of civilians in mass graves found in ever city freed by Ukraine. There is no evidence that the Ukranians committed war crimes on this scale.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post

                        You know exactly what post it is -- #35. It was a response to this...



                        I addressed why Reps oppose the insane Ukraine operation we're engaged in.
                        Failure to acknowledge the extreme ethnic cleansing and slaughter of tens of thousands of Ukrainians found in mass graves in every city and town liberated by Ukrainians. The scorched earth policy of the imperialist Russia leveling cities and towns, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas and shopping malls as primary targets of Russia.

                        No, you have failed torespond or acknowledge the 10,000 to 1 atrocities committed by Russia over any attrocoties committed by Ukraine.

                        The support of NATO is freeing the Ukrainian people from this. Actually the freeing of the Ukraine people , degrading and neutering the Russian military, which will likely help free other Asian and Eastern Europe from the imperialist grip of Russia is well worth the cost and more.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-05-2022, 08:52 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          As I said I clearly and specifically acknowledge the atrocities committed by Ukraine. What you have failed to acknowledge is the 10,000 to one atrocities and war crimes committed by Russia in the imperialist invasion of Ukraine following a pattern of Russia's plan to dominate Eastern Europe as the stated plans of all Russian leaders since the Czars.

                          You have not acknowledged the scorched earth policy of Russia to level and destroy cities and towns targeting hospitals, schools, residential areas and shopping malls. The kidnapping of of over 100,000 children. The execution of untold numbers of civilians in mass graves found in ever city freed by Ukraine. There is no evidence that the Ukranians committed war crimes on this scale.
                          Yes, Russia has destroyed civilian structures in Ukraine, but that's because, in many cases, the Ukrainian army was using those structures as bases of operation to stage attacks against the Russian army which made them legitimate military targets. As I said, Ukraine is deliberately putting civilian populations in harm's way.

                          Certainly Russia is committing its share of atrocities in this war, but Ukraine is not blameless, either. The difference between you and me is that I'm willing to condemn both sides while you want to give Ukraine a pass.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            Yes, Russia has destroyed civilian structures in Ukraine, but that's because, in many cases, the Ukrainian army was using those structures as bases of operation to stage attacks against the Russian army which made them legitimate military targets. As I said, Ukraine is deliberately putting civilian populations in harm's way.
                            False, there is no evidence of this. Please cite sources. Russia targeted hospitals, schools and residential areas all over Ukraine there is absolutely no evidence of any significant use of these targats for military use of these targets.

                            Waiting for citations

                            Certainly Russia is committing its share of atrocities in this war, but Ukraine is not blameless, either. The difference between you and me is that I'm willing to condemn both sides while you want to give Ukraine a pass.
                            Please provide evidence of any equivalence between the atrocities by Ukraine when comparing to the overwhelming war crimes and atrocities committed by Russia as cited.

                            Remember imperialist Russia invaded Ukraine not Ukraine invading Russia.

                            Still waiting . . . but I will not hold my breath, because you have failed to provide any citations in the past.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              I'm not convinced that the Ukrainian people are getting much benefit if any from the billions of dollars being put into Zelinsky's corrupt little hands. It's like handing money to a mob boss and thinking it's going to be used for good. Certainly we should be doing what we can for the innocent victims on both sides of this conflict, but this is not the way to do it.

                              Let's put it this way: would you be in favor of Putin being given billions in US aid to help the innocent Russian citizens who have been hurt in this war? Of course you wouldn't because Putin is a megalomaniac who would use the money to enrich himself and his political allies. I oppose giving money to Zelinsky for the same reason.
                              Russia is currently being driven back from land it stole and then illegally annexed, and rather soundly spanked but sure, not "much benefit"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                False, there is no evidence of this. Please cite sources. Russia targeted hospitals, schools and residential areas all over Ukraine there is absolutely no evidence of any significant use of these targats for military use of these targets.

                                Waiting for citations



                                Please provide evidence of any equivalence between the atrocities by Ukraine when comparing to the overwhelming war crimes and atrocities committed by Russia as cited.

                                Remember imperialist Russia invaded Ukraine not Ukraine invading Russia.

                                Still waiting . . . but I will not hold my breath, because you have failed to provide any citations in the past.
                                The fact that you have to ask for sources reveals how ignorant you really are and how much you are depending on the sanitized for your protection propaganda in the Western media.

                                Here's a report from Amnesty International documenting the Ukrainian military's habit of deliberately putting civilians in harm's way:

                                https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-rel...tial-areas-new

                                I'll leave it as an exercise for you to find other sources, assuming you have any interest in the truth.

                                Of course none of this excuses Russia or Putin, but Ukraine is certainly not innocent, either.
                                Last edited by Mountain Man; 10-05-2022, 05:18 PM.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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