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EU sees sabotage of Nord Stream

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    How can they sell their natural gas if the pipeline to their customers is damaged?
    Er, it's only the ones to Germany. Fun fact: the Russians are still paying transit fees to Ukraine. The overland pipelines are still fine.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Anyone else notice that there doesn't seem to be much investigating being done?

      Kind of looks like Hunter's laptop, Epstein's client list, the SCOTUS leak or the Las Vegas shooting. Something to be ignored by the powers that be.
      Sweden would like to be a member state first, thanks.

      Ticking off the US (if it were us, which it probably was not) is no way to get NATO membership.

      Risking the ever more desperate Russia attacking Sweden while not a member state is also a bad plan.

      Besides, the Brits did it. At least according to the Russians.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

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      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

        Sweden would like to be a member state first, thanks.

        Ticking off the US (if it were us, which it probably was not) is no way to get NATO membership.

        Risking the ever more desperate Russia attacking Sweden while not a member state is also a bad plan.

        Besides, the Brits did it. At least according to the Russians.
        That the pipelines running through Ukraine are still doing business as usual, along with the apparent complete lack of interest in investigating this make me think this was definitely done by a western power.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          That the pipelines running through Ukraine are still doing business as usual, along with the apparent complete lack of interest in investigating this make me think this was definitely done by a western power.
          Looks the opposite to me. Russia is still making money on the overland pipelines where Nord Stream had become a big liability.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

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          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

            Looks the opposite to me. Russia is still making money on the overland pipelines where Nord Stream had become a big liability.
            But so is Ukraine and the west is heavily into getting them as much money as possible. And the one where they get money from is still operational.





            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              That the pipelines running through Ukraine are still doing business as usual, along with the apparent complete lack of interest in investigating this make me think this was definitely done by a western power.
              I think a lack of interest could also be explained by the minor impact. Nord Stream isn't currently being used, and probably won't be used in the foreseeable future. So investigating it might seem like a waste of time and resources.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                But so is Ukraine and the west is heavily into getting them as much money as possible. And the one where they get money from is still operational.




                Nah, they aren't making as much as possible - remember Poland and Romania. Also, Russia wasn't making any money on Nord Stream or likely to in the near future. Why bother? Russia has much bigger issues about to come home to roost. Save the drama for when it will really hurt.

                Of course, Shell and BP will be sad. All that work will have to be done all over again... {Note dripping sarcasm} after the wellheads freeze.

                Winter is coming.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

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                • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                  I think a lack of interest could also be explained by the minor impact. Nord Stream isn't currently being used, and probably won't be used in the foreseeable future. So investigating it might seem like a waste of time and resources.
                  Sweden has the jurisdiction and they want to be in NATO. Ticking off Turkey, while fun, hurts that timeframe, so not revealing Russia without rock solid evidence - or even with - is probably the hold up right now. Once Sweden doesn't have to worry about what side of the bed Erdawan got up on today, they will probably be more responsive.

                  FYI same would work if they suspected the US - I just think that one is plain silly so I went with the more likely.
                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Seymour Hersh, only what's funny, this time the WH didn't ignore him like they ignored other folks questioning the official narrative (like Jeffrey Sachs and his theory about helicopters), which means Hersh must have said something that touched a nerve.

                    According to Seymour Hersh...

                    Nord Stream Sabotage Was CIA, US Navy Covert Op: Seymour Hersh Bombshell Prompts White House Response

                    Hersh, relying on unnamed national security sources, describes months of discussions and back-and-forth involving the Biden White House, CIA, and Pentagon. The report says planning was in the works all the way back to December 2021, with a special task force formed under the aegis of US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan.

                    "The Navy proposed using a newly commissioned submarine to assault the pipeline directly. The Air Force discussed dropping bombs with delayed fuses that could be set off remotely. The CIA argued that whatever was done, it would have to be covert. Everyone involved understood the stakes," the report, entitled How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline reads.

                    "The Biden Administration was doing everything possible to avoid leaks as the planning took place late in 2021 and into the first months of 2022," it continues.

                    As momentum gained to proceed with a covert sabotage attack, "Over the next few weeks, members of the CIA’s working group began to craft a plan for a covert operation that would use deep-sea divers to trigger an explosion along the pipeline," Hersh writes.

                    But there was significant push back within the intelligence community, but any reservations were overcome in the lead-up and aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. According to the investigative report:

                    Throughout “all of this scheming,” the source said, “some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, ‘Don’t do this. It’s stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.’

                    Nevertheless, in early 2022, the CIA working group reported back to Sullivan’s interagency group: “We have a way to blow up the pipelines.”

                    What came next was stunning. On February 7, less than three weeks before the seemingly inevitable Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden met in his White House office with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who, after some wobbling, was now firmly on the American team. At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, “If Russia invades . . . there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.”

                    Twenty days earlier, Undersecretary Nuland had delivered essentially the same message at a State Department briefing, with little press coverage. “I want to be very clear to you today,” she said in response to a question. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

                    As for Washington motives in such a risky covert sabotage mission, Hersh writes, "As long as Europe remained dependent on the pipelines for cheap natural gas, Washington was afraid that countries like Germany would be reluctant to supply Ukraine with the money and weapons it needed to defeat Russia."Norway played a significant logistics and intelligence role in assisting an elite US Navy deep-diving team of divers based out of Panama City to carry out the operation:

                    Norway played a significant logistics and intelligence role in assisting an elite US Navy deep-diving team of divers based out of Panama City to carry out the operation:

                    Sometime in March, a few members of the team flew to Norway to meet with the Norwegian Secret Service and Navy. One of the key questions was where exactly in the Baltic Sea was the best place to plant the explosives. Nord Stream 1 and 2, each with two sets of pipelines, were separated much of the way by little more than a mile as they made their run to the port of Greifswald in the far northeast of Germany.

                    The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark’s Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep. That would be well within the range of the divers, who, operating from a Norwegian Alta class mine hunter, would dive with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and helium streaming from their tanks, and plant shaped C4 charges on the four pipelines with concrete protective covers. It would be tedious, time consuming and dangerous work, but the waters off Bornholm had another advantage: there were no major tidal currents, which would have made the task of diving much more difficult.

                    Hersh's sources underscore that the order came directly from President Biden's office:

                    The C4 attached to the pipelines would be triggered by a sonar buoy dropped by a plane on short notice, but the procedure involved the most advanced signal processing technology. Once in place, the delayed timing devices attached to any of the four pipelines could be accidentally triggered by the complex mix of ocean background noises throughout the heavily trafficked Baltic Sea—from near and distant ships, underwater drilling, seismic events, waves and even sea creatures. To avoid this, the sonar buoy, once in place, would emit a sequence of unique low frequency tonal sounds—much like those emitted by a flute or a piano—that would be recognized by the timing device and, after a pre-set hours of delay, trigger the explosives.

                    ...On September 26, 2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy. The signal spread underwater, initially to Nord Stream 2 and then on to Nord Stream 1. A few hours later, the high-powered C4 explosives were triggered and three of the four pipelines were put out of commission. Within a few minutes, pools of methane gas that remained in the shuttered pipelines could be seen spreading on the water’s surface and the world learned that something irreversible had taken place.


                    As far as the motive he claims for why they did it, I give that a big fat DUH.



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Seymour Hersh, only what's funny, this time the WH didn't ignore him like they ignored other folks questioning the official narrative (like Jeffrey Sachs and his theory about helicopters), which means Hersh must have said something that touched a nerve.

                      According to Seymour Hersh...

                      Nord Stream Sabotage Was CIA, US Navy Covert Op: Seymour Hersh Bombshell Prompts White House Response

                      Hersh, relying on unnamed national security sources, describes months of discussions and back-and-forth involving the Biden White House, CIA, and Pentagon. The report says planning was in the works all the way back to December 2021, with a special task force formed under the aegis of US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan.

                      "The Navy proposed using a newly commissioned submarine to assault the pipeline directly. The Air Force discussed dropping bombs with delayed fuses that could be set off remotely. The CIA argued that whatever was done, it would have to be covert. Everyone involved understood the stakes," the report, entitled How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline reads.

                      "The Biden Administration was doing everything possible to avoid leaks as the planning took place late in 2021 and into the first months of 2022," it continues.

                      As momentum gained to proceed with a covert sabotage attack, "Over the next few weeks, members of the CIA’s working group began to craft a plan for a covert operation that would use deep-sea divers to trigger an explosion along the pipeline," Hersh writes.

                      But there was significant push back within the intelligence community, but any reservations were overcome in the lead-up and aftermath of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022. According to the investigative report:

                      Throughout “all of this scheming,” the source said, “some working guys in the CIA and the State Department were saying, ‘Don’t do this. It’s stupid and will be a political nightmare if it comes out.’

                      Nevertheless, in early 2022, the CIA working group reported back to Sullivan’s interagency group: “We have a way to blow up the pipelines.”

                      What came next was stunning. On February 7, less than three weeks before the seemingly inevitable Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden met in his White House office with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who, after some wobbling, was now firmly on the American team. At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, “If Russia invades . . . there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.”

                      Twenty days earlier, Undersecretary Nuland had delivered essentially the same message at a State Department briefing, with little press coverage. “I want to be very clear to you today,” she said in response to a question. “If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another Nord Stream 2 will not move forward.”

                      As for Washington motives in such a risky covert sabotage mission, Hersh writes, "As long as Europe remained dependent on the pipelines for cheap natural gas, Washington was afraid that countries like Germany would be reluctant to supply Ukraine with the money and weapons it needed to defeat Russia."Norway played a significant logistics and intelligence role in assisting an elite US Navy deep-diving team of divers based out of Panama City to carry out the operation:

                      Norway played a significant logistics and intelligence role in assisting an elite US Navy deep-diving team of divers based out of Panama City to carry out the operation:

                      Sometime in March, a few members of the team flew to Norway to meet with the Norwegian Secret Service and Navy. One of the key questions was where exactly in the Baltic Sea was the best place to plant the explosives. Nord Stream 1 and 2, each with two sets of pipelines, were separated much of the way by little more than a mile as they made their run to the port of Greifswald in the far northeast of Germany.

                      The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark’s Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep. That would be well within the range of the divers, who, operating from a Norwegian Alta class mine hunter, would dive with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and helium streaming from their tanks, and plant shaped C4 charges on the four pipelines with concrete protective covers. It would be tedious, time consuming and dangerous work, but the waters off Bornholm had another advantage: there were no major tidal currents, which would have made the task of diving much more difficult.

                      Hersh's sources underscore that the order came directly from President Biden's office:

                      The C4 attached to the pipelines would be triggered by a sonar buoy dropped by a plane on short notice, but the procedure involved the most advanced signal processing technology. Once in place, the delayed timing devices attached to any of the four pipelines could be accidentally triggered by the complex mix of ocean background noises throughout the heavily trafficked Baltic Sea—from near and distant ships, underwater drilling, seismic events, waves and even sea creatures. To avoid this, the sonar buoy, once in place, would emit a sequence of unique low frequency tonal sounds—much like those emitted by a flute or a piano—that would be recognized by the timing device and, after a pre-set hours of delay, trigger the explosives.

                      ...On September 26, 2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy. The signal spread underwater, initially to Nord Stream 2 and then on to Nord Stream 1. A few hours later, the high-powered C4 explosives were triggered and three of the four pipelines were put out of commission. Within a few minutes, pools of methane gas that remained in the shuttered pipelines could be seen spreading on the water’s surface and the world learned that something irreversible had taken place.


                      As far as the motive he claims for why they did it, I give that a big fat DUH.


                      It would be inconceivable that plans weren't discussed for how to take the pipeline out. That of course is still a far cry from actually doing it.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • The narrative that Russia sabotaged its own oil pipeline never made any sense, so it was pretty obvious from the beginning that it was likely a US operation.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          The narrative that Russia sabotaged its own oil pipeline never made any sense, so it was pretty obvious from the beginning that it was likely a US operation.
                          And now we wait for Putin's response. I hope he shows restraint and attempts to verify Hersh's claims before acting.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                            And now we wait for Putin's response. I hope he shows restraint and attempts to verify Hersh's claims before acting.
                            I'm pretty sure Russia already knew.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              I'm pretty sure Russia already knew.
                              I'm sure they already suspected, but I doubt they knew for sure. And we can't even know for sure, based solely on Hersh's claims (i.e. "according to unnamed sources" stuff).

                              All Russia could have known for sure is that they didn't do it. Ukraine could have hired someone, anyone, to perform it for them.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                                And now we wait for Putin's response. I hope he shows restraint and attempts to verify Hersh's claims before acting.
                                I'm pretty sure it will never be verified because US government will just continue to be resolute in their denial, and MSM "fact checkers" will continue covering for them. In fact, I expect a brutal smear campaign against Hersh to be unleashed at any moment.

                                Only way I can see it being verified is if EU countries fracture, break free from US influence, do their own investigation and somehow prove it that way. That's a pretty long shot.

                                Maybe something will happen after the war when everyone starts questioning everyone's actions and pointing fingers.

                                Comment

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