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The Pope fails to take a moral stand on Russia's invasion of Ukraine

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  • The Pope fails to take a moral stand on Russia's invasion of Ukraine

    The Pope of the Roman Church fails to take a moral stand against Russia's invasion of Ukraine by blaming NATO and the West as being partially at fault causing the invasion of Ukraine. The Pope failed to understand Russia's imperialist plans Ukraine invasion was just one step of many in the past and future plans of forced domination of Eastern Europe.

    This morally ambiguous position has inspired support in Itally for the Russian aggression.

    Source: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/pope-francis-creates-confusion-putin-war-against-ukraine-rages



    Pope Francis creates confusion as Putin's war against Ukraine rages

    The Vatican has missed opportunities to bring moral clarity to Russia's war against Ukraine

    With war now raging in Ukraine, where is the Holy See? And how has it chosen to use its moral authority and influence?

    In Ukraine, the world now faces the worst brutality and inhumanity since the Second World War and Stalin’s purges. Vladimir Putin is actualizing his expressed long-term goal of regaining territories lost after the fall of the Iron Curtain. For years, he has longed for the territory held by Catherine the Great. Now, he’s even comparing himself to Peter the Great in executing this hegemonist aggression.

    While Pope Francis has made clear that he does not support the war or Putin’s personal butchery, he has created more confusion than resolution. He has nurtured, even if unintentionally, a false mantra that, essentially, the West is to blame for Putin’s aggression by having expanded NATO. As he said, quoting a source he valued, "They are barking at the gates of Russia. They do not understand that the Russians are imperialists and will allow no foreign power to approach them." Despite the lack of evidence of any NATO hostility toward peaceful Russian actions, or the fact that NATO is in the business of protecting western democracies, including our newest members, Pope Francis has argued that its expansion is itself an aggression; and that because it would offend a Russian "imperialist" culture, we have been the wrongdoers.

    Unfortunately, an authoritarian strongman like Putin will only be ennobled by these comments coming from the top of one of the West’s most esteemed institutions. Appeasement has never worked. As Churchill said, "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile—hoping it will eat him last." In light of the history of Hitler and Stalin’s co-option and then destruction of the Church, one would hope that the pope would know this.

    The pope has added to this confusion about the Holy See’s diplomacy regarding the Ukraine war by criticizing those who see the war as a struggle between good and evil. He advises those who view the war in such stark black and white terms to abandon this "Little Red Riding Hood" pattern of thought. He even contends that "there are no metaphysical good guys and bad guys, in an abstract sense."

    So a few questions: what level of death and destruction are necessary to make the wolf a malevolent aggressor? Has not the obliteration of a large part of Ukraine already accomplished this? Are there no universal truths and objective realities? Is the pope actually endorsing moral relativity?

    © Copyright Original Source



    This moral ambiguity of the Pope concerning the invasion of Ukraine has contributed to the support of Russia by Italian elected representatives and support for Russia among Italians. The Pope remains silent.

    More to follow concerning the support for Russia among Italians,



    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Aside from aggravating Orthodox Christians what do you think it would accomplish?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Aside from aggravating Orthodox Christians what do you think it would accomplish?
      It would provide a unified voice of moral obligation among believers in the Roman Church against the Russian invasion of Ukraine. As of know it gives credence to the invasion of Ukraine, and the imperialist goals of Russia in Eastern Europe.

      The Orthodox Churches are not at all unified in opposition to Russia's invasion, In fact as I will provide references I believe thw ambiguity of the Orthodox Church Russia has wide spread support from the Russian Orthodox Church.

      The bottom line the head of the Roman Church has great influence among the followers and the failure to take a firm moral stand is egregiously immoral in and of itself regardless.
      Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-23-2022, 11:35 AM.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        This is just one of the numerous problems and issues that have determined that the Roman Church referred to as the Catholic (Universal) Church, is not the universal voice of moral authority for the world,
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          This is just one of the numerous problems and issues that have determined that the Roman Church referred to as the Catholic (Universal) Church, is not the universal voice of moral authority for the world,
          Only the RCC sees themselves as the universal voice of moral authority.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Only the RCC sees themselves as the universal voice of moral authority.
            True, that is only part of the problem. The Roman Church does represent about 1.3 billion believers worldwide.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              True, that is only part of the problem. The Roman Church does represent about 1.3 billion believers worldwide.
              The point is that the pope does not have very much influence over there. FWIU, all of roughly 0.1% of Russians are Catholic.

              In fact what he says could be received as meddling and interfering and hence end up being counterproductive.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                The point is that the pope does not have very much influence over there. FWIU, all of roughly 0.1% of Russians are Catholic.

                In fact what he says could be received as meddling and interfering and hence end up being counterproductive.
                Never said he had any influence in Russia, but his influence is in west among his followers. This egregious immoral view of Russia reflects a severe problem for the Roman Church. Putin is inspired by Conservative right-wing support from these elements in the West that justify his war, even to a smaller degree among the extreme right in the USA.

                For example:

                Silvio parrots the Popes words and carries it to a new level of support for Putin.

                Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63005402



                Silvio Berlusconi: Ex-PM defends Russian war on eve of Italian election

                Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has defended Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, saying Russia's leader was "pushed" into the conflict.

                The 85-year-old said Russian troops were meant to replace the government with "decent people" then leave.
                The three-time Italian PM is a long-term ally of the Russian president.

                This weekend his party is expected to take power as part of a right-wing coalition in a general election in Italy.
                A narrative alleging the Ukrainian government was slaughtering Russian speakers in the east of the country was created by the media in Moscow, Mr Berlusconi told Italian TV.

                He said the reporting, pushed by separatist forces and nationalist politicians in the Russian government, had left Mr Putin with no choice but to launch a limited invasion.

                "Putin was pushed by the Russian population, by his party and by his ministers to invent this special operation," he said.

                "The troops were supposed to enter, reach Kyiv in a week, replace the Zelensky government with decent people and a week later come back," Mr Berlusconi added.

                © Copyright Original Source

                Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-24-2022, 08:31 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                  Never said he had any influence in Russia, but his influence is in west among his followers. This egregious immoral view of Russia reflects a severe problem for the Roman Church. Putin is inspired by Conservative right-wing support from these elements in the West that justify his war, even to a smaller degree among the extreme right in the USA.

                  For example:

                  Silvio parrots the Popes words and carries it to a new level of support for Putin.

                  Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63005402



                  Silvio Berlusconi: Ex-PM defends Russian war on eve of Italian election

                  Former Italian PM Silvio Berlusconi has defended Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine, saying Russia's leader was "pushed" into the conflict.

                  The 85-year-old said Russian troops were meant to replace the government with "decent people" then leave.
                  The three-time Italian PM is a long-term ally of the Russian president.

                  This weekend his party is expected to take power as part of a right-wing coalition in a general election in Italy.
                  A narrative alleging the Ukrainian government was slaughtering Russian speakers in the east of the country was created by the media in Moscow, Mr Berlusconi told Italian TV.

                  He said the reporting, pushed by separatist forces and nationalist politicians in the Russian government, had left Mr Putin with no choice but to launch a limited invasion.

                  "Putin was pushed by the Russian population, by his party and by his ministers to invent this special operation," he said.

                  "The troops were supposed to enter, reach Kyiv in a week, replace the Zelensky government with decent people and a week later come back," Mr Berlusconi added.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Oh goody. Another cheerleader for the West, like we don't have scores of them already.

                  Basically you are demanding an empty gesture -- virtue signaling -- from him, that won't have any demonstrable positive effect, and in all likelihood, only serve to irritate the participants on both sides of the war.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Good for the Pope. I have maintained from the beginning that the Russian-Ukraine conflict is a dispute between two corrupt governments. To take a stand against one is to stand in favor of the corruption of the other. I think a neutral stance is best.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Good for the Pope. I have maintained from the beginning that the Russian-Ukraine conflict is a dispute between two corrupt governments. To take a stand against one is to stand in favor of the corruption of the other. I think a neutral stance is best.
                      It’s not neutral to be a law-of-the-jungle-ist.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Good for the Pope. I have maintained from the beginning that the Russian-Ukraine conflict is a dispute between two corrupt governments. To take a stand against one is to stand in favor of the corruption of the other. I think a neutral stance is best.
                        The Pope made no reference to the corruption, and like you the Pope is ignore the unbelievable horrific brutality of Russia on the Ukrainian people. and the ongoing Russian imperialism to take over and dominate Eastern Europe by force and intimidation.

                        Your comments here put you in the extreme right support for Putin,
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                          The Pope made no reference to the corruption, and like you the Pope is ignore the unbelievable horrific brutality of Russia on the Ukrainian people. and the ongoing Russian imperialism to take over and dominate Eastern Europe by force and intimidation.

                          Your comments here put you in the extreme right support for Putin,
                          Good thing your judgement isn't trusted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Apparenly, shunya's definition of 'parrots' is 'disagrees with.'
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Oh goody. Another cheerleader for the West, like we don't have scores of them already.

                              Basically you are demanding an empty gesture -- virtue signaling -- from him, that won't have any demonstrable positive effect, and in all likelihood, only serve to irritate the participants on both sides of the war.
                              Ah yes we should want "cheerleaders" for Russia instead, right Komrade?
                              "When you're attacking FBI agents because you're under criminal investigation, you're losing"
                              -Trump Press Secretary, Sarah Huckabee Sanders


                              "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                              - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

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