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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    That is nonsense, Marxism in practice always ends up in Communism and totalitarianism.
    Presumably you're referring to the political philosophy of Marxism as implemented by a government. These professors though are thinking of Marxism as a social critique style of analysis they use in their writing.

    I presume you are not arguing that every essay written by any of these professors ended up in Communism and totalitarianism? So you're talking about a totally different thing.

    And every Marxist professor knows what the theory looks like in practice.
    Yes, unlike you they are aware their own essays have not always ended in mass deaths.

    When these professors report in this survey that they are Marxist, they are not saying they would support a Marxist political party. Those are quite different things. Perhaps you could think of it as the difference between a person being a Christian themselves in their personal life, versus a person who wanted a merger of Church and State and thought Christianity should be the Official State Religion and that the leader of the country should be the leader of the church. So someone can be a marxist themselves without wanting to impose a marxist government on the country, just as someone can be a Christian without wanting to unite church and state and impose that religion on everyone.

    Hell you can say that Fascism is merely a way to organize a society.
    These professors would not say their Marxism was a way to organize a society. In the social sciences, Marxism is a way to analyze a society, not organize one.
    Last edited by Starlight; 09-21-2022, 06:03 AM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Presumably you're referring to the political philosophy of Marxism as implemented by a government. These professors though are thinking of Marxism as a social critique style of analysis they use in their writing.

      I presume you are not arguing that every essay written by any of these professors ended up in Communism and totalitarianism? So you're talking about a totally different thing.

      Yes, unlike you they are aware their own essays have not always ended in mass deaths.

      When these professors report in this survey that they are Marxist, they are not saying they would support a Marxist political party. Those are quite different things. Perhaps you could think of it as the difference between a person being a Christian themselves in their personal life, versus a person who wanted a merger of Church and State and thought Christianity should be the Official State Religion and that the leader of the country should be the leader of the church. So someone can be a marxist themselves without wanting to impose a marxist government on the country, just as someone can be a Christian without wanting to unite church and state and impose that religion on everyone.

      These professors would not say their Marxism was a way to organize a society. In the social sciences, Marxism is a way to analyze a society, not organize one.
      Link? It's not that we don't trust your word...it's just that we don't trust your word.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        That is nonsense, Marxism in practice always ends up in Communism and totalitarianism. Personal property rights and personal freedom is lost. Never mind the shed blood it took to get various populations to conform and kowtow. Unless you have counter examples. Hell you can say that Fascism is merely a way to organize a society. And every Marxist professor knows what the theory looks like in practice. So spare me...
        Of course the interesting historical fact is that the totalitarianism of what was called communism took place in countries with no histories of democracy.

        I would not consider the views of groups like the Levellers [to whom the later French and American revolutions owed some debt] to be overly totalitarian, nor indeed the views of John Wesley. Methodism was also an important factor in developing British working class movements including the Labour Party, as the British left-wing politician Tony Benn observed.

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Unless you have counter examples.
          Unfortunately democracies tend to be vulnerable to foreign interference, more so than dictatorships. During the cold war, US operatives attempted to overthrow governments 64-81 times (depending on how you count them) in countries that the US didn't view as capitalist enough. They were more prone to success in the more democratic countries, with the US supporting right-wing military dictators as the alternative to left-wing democratic governments.

          The cold war era was the main period of history in which countries were experimenting with forms of communism, and the unrelenting US coup attempts make the sample from then quite biased - the countries that survived the coup attempts with their governments in tact were typically the less democratic ones. Arguing from that dataset that communism is by its nature totalitarian is difficult, given the US was very actively sabotaging the non-totalitarian communist groups.

          I'm not a fan of communism (nor am I particularly a fan of capitalism), but I don't think you've got nearly as good a historical argument against it as you seem to assume. Nicaragua and Bolivia would be examples of countries who did manage to have self-identified-Socialist governments for extended periods of time without collapsing or going full totalitarian.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
            Link? It's not that we don't trust your word...it's just that we don't trust your word.
            Wiki, Marxism, first sentence, my bold:
            Marxism is a left-wing to far-left method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict and a dialectical perspective to view social transformation.


            Wiki, Marxist Philosophy, first paragraph, trimmed:
            Marxist philosophy or Marxist theory are works in philosophy that are strongly influenced by Karl Marx's materialist approach to theory... Marxist philosophy may be broadly divided into Western Marxism... and the official philosophy in the Soviet Union... during the 1930s. ...The theory is also about the struggles of the proletariat and their reprimand of the bourgeoisie. Marxist theorist Louis Althusser, for example, defined the philosophy as "class struggle in theory"


            Wiki, Western Marxism, which of the 4 historical types of Marxism has tended to be the major one during the last century in the West, article trimmed:
            Western Marxism is a current of Marxist theory that arose from Western and Central Europe in the aftermath of the 1917 October Revolution in Russia and the ascent of Leninism. The term denotes a loose collection of theorists who advanced an interpretation of Marxism distinct from both classical and Orthodox Marxism and the Marxism-Leninism of the Soviet Union... Less concerned with economic analysis than earlier schools of Marxist thought, Western Marxism placed greater emphasis on the study of the cultural trends of capitalist society, deploying the more philosophical and subjective aspects of Marxism... Perry Anderson in the mid-1970s characterised Western Marxism after the Second World War as predominantly undertaken by university-based philosophers, exemplified by Theodor Adorno, Galvano Della Volpe and Herbert Marcuse, among others....

            Although there have been many schools of Marxist thought that are sharply distinguished from Marxism–Leninism... the theorists who downplay the primacy of economic analysis are considered Western Marxists. Where the base of the capitalist economy is the focus of earlier Marxists, the Western Marxists concentrate on the problems of superstructures, as their attention centres on culture, philosophy, and art. Western Marxism often emphasises the importance of the study of culture, class consciousness and subjectivity for an adequate Marxist understanding of society...

            While Western Marxism is often contrasted with the Marxism of the Soviet Union, Western Marxists have been divided in their opinion of it and other Marxist–Leninist states. Some have offered qualified support, others have been highly critical and still others have changed their views over time...
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Of course the interesting historical fact is that the totalitarianism of what was called communism took place in countries with no histories of democracy.
              A worthwhile observation.

              Communism doesn't seem to have much of a history of destroying democracies nor of creating them. Nazism by contrast is almost solely known for destroying democracies and replacing them with dictators.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #22
                So... Am I the only one when they read the title starts thinking of the Wizard of Oz?

                Commies and Nazis... and Fascists. Oh my!

                Commies and Nazis and Fascists, oh my

                Commies and Nazis and Fascists, oh my


                I'll show my self out

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Unfortunately democracies tend to be vulnerable to foreign interference, more so than dictatorships. During the cold war, US operatives attempted to overthrow governments 64-81 times (depending on how you count them) in countries that the US didn't view as capitalist enough. They were more prone to success in the more democratic countries, with the US supporting right-wing military dictators as the alternative to left-wing democratic governments.

                  The cold war era was the main period of history in which countries were experimenting with forms of communism, and the unrelenting US coup attempts make the sample from then quite biased - the countries that survived the coup attempts with their governments in tact were typically the less democratic ones. Arguing from that dataset that communism is by its nature totalitarian is difficult, given the US was very actively sabotaging the non-totalitarian communist groups.

                  I'm not a fan of communism (nor am I particularly a fan of capitalism), but I don't think you've got nearly as good a historical argument against it as you seem to assume. Nicaragua and Bolivia would be examples of countries who did manage to have self-identified-Socialist governments for extended periods of time without collapsing or going full totalitarian.

                  Really? Nicaragua?

                  Since taking office in 2007, the government of President Daniel Ortega has dismantled nearly all institutional checks on presidential power. The Electoral Council, stacked with the president’s supporters, removed opposition lawmakers in 2016 and has barred opposition political parties ahead of the 2021 presidential elections. A constitutional amendment approved by President Ortega’s party, which controls the National Assembly, abolished term limits in 2014. President Ortega was elected to a fourth consecutive term in November amid government repression of critics and the political opposition. Many governments from the region and Europe said the elections had not met minimum guarantees to be considered free and fair.

                  To pave the way for his re-election, authorities arbitrarily arrested and prosecuted government critics and political opponents, including presidential candidates, journalists, lawyers, and leaders of community, business, and student groups.

                  Police abuses committed during a brutal crackdown by the National Police and armed pro-government groups in 2018 have gone unpunished.

                  https://www.hrw.org/world-report/202...ters/nicaragua
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Starlight;n1415278
                    These professors would not say their Marxism was a way to organize a society. In the social sciences, Marxism is a way to [I
                    analyze[/I] a society, not organize one.
                    Really? Show that they are only analyzing rather than proscribing? Of course they have no actual power presently, but if they did they would follow the path of past Marxists...

                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I find it telling that Marxists and socialists (like Starlight) constantly have to disavow all real world implementations of those philosophies as having nothing to do with actual Marxism or socialism. "They didn't do it right" is their refrain.

                      facecrack socialism - Copy.jpg
                      Last edited by Sparko; 09-21-2022, 07:17 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        At least the professors are honest about it (or many of them). It would be worse if they tried to hide it when the pollsters came around and restarted the indoctrination once they left the building.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Wiki, Marxism, first sentence, my bold:
                          Marxism is a left-wing to far-left method of socioeconomic analysis that uses a materialist interpretation of historical development, better known as historical materialism, to understand class relations and social conflict and a dialectical perspective to view social transformation.


                          Wiki, Marxist Philosophy, first paragraph, trimmed:
                          Marxist philosophy or Marxist theory are works in philosophy that are strongly influenced by Karl Marx's materialist approach to theory... Marxist philosophy may be broadly divided into Western Marxism... and the official philosophy in the Soviet Union... during the 1930s. ...The theory is also about the struggles of the proletariat and their reprimand of the bourgeoisie. Marxist theorist Louis Althusser, for example, defined the philosophy as "class struggle in theory"


                          Wiki, Western Marxism, which of the 4 historical types of Marxism has tended to be the major one during the last century in the West, article trimmed:
                          Western Marxism is a current of Marxist theory that arose from Western and Central Europe in the aftermath of the 1917 October Revolution in Russia and the ascent of Leninism. The term denotes a loose collection of theorists who advanced an interpretation of Marxism distinct from both classical and Orthodox Marxism and the Marxism-Leninism of the Soviet Union... Less concerned with economic analysis than earlier schools of Marxist thought, Western Marxism placed greater emphasis on the study of the cultural trends of capitalist society, deploying the more philosophical and subjective aspects of Marxism... Perry Anderson in the mid-1970s characterised Western Marxism after the Second World War as predominantly undertaken by university-based philosophers, exemplified by Theodor Adorno, Galvano Della Volpe and Herbert Marcuse, among others....

                          Although there have been many schools of Marxist thought that are sharply distinguished from Marxism–Leninism... the theorists who downplay the primacy of economic analysis are considered Western Marxists. Where the base of the capitalist economy is the focus of earlier Marxists, the Western Marxists concentrate on the problems of superstructures, as their attention centres on culture, philosophy, and art. Western Marxism often emphasises the importance of the study of culture, class consciousness and subjectivity for an adequate Marxist understanding of society...

                          While Western Marxism is often contrasted with the Marxism of the Soviet Union, Western Marxists have been divided in their opinion of it and other Marxist–Leninist states. Some have offered qualified support, others have been highly critical and still others have changed their views over time...
                          And your evidence that THIS was what those acedemics were referring to, AND that they did not hold other beliefs?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            I find it telling that Marxists and socialists (like Starlight) constantly have to disavow all real world implementations of those philosophies as having nothing to do with actual Marxism or socialism.
                            I find it telling that right wingers choose to pretend there aren't lots of different varieties of socialism and choose to pretend they are all the same thing in order to tar one variety with the failures of another. It's almost as if right wingers don't actually believe they could win a fair argument on the merits of the actual positions.

                            Your cartoon could equally be replaced with "right wing policies" or "tax cuts for the rich".
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                              And your evidence that THIS was what those acedemics were referring to, AND that they did not hold other beliefs?
                              They probably held lots of other beliefs. I can't prove they weren't all firm adherents of Voodooism. Seer likewise can't prove they are all firm adherents of communism. They were social science professors saying they were Marxist, and I explained what that is in the social sciences above.

                              If you want to conduct your own survey of them about communism by all means do so.
                              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                I find it telling that right wingers choose to pretend there aren't lots of different varieties of socialism and choose to pretend they are all the same thing in order to tar one variety with the failures of another. It's almost as if right wingers don't actually believe they could win a fair argument on the merits of the actual positions.

                                You mean like when the left paints all right wingers as neo Fascist? The fact is Marxism destroys property rights. Which in turn destroys privacy. Never mind the freedom of worship. We know what Marx believed about these things, so why would professors call themselves Marxists if they are not lining up with the ideals of Marx? And knowing what Marxism produced on the ground in the last century?
                                Last edited by seer; 09-21-2022, 08:02 AM.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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