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Women on Waves (Abortion boat) coming to Guatemalan waters.

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  • Women on Waves (Abortion boat) coming to Guatemalan waters.

    I am unable to find an English site reporting on the event, but the Guatemalan populace and government have been notified of a Women on Waves boat that approached recently close to Guatemala with the intent of carrying out abortions. They intend to anchor for 5 days, and well beyond the reach of Guatemalan jurisdiction, but close enough to allow themselves to be reached without entering maritime boundaries of the State.

    As far as I have heard, they are only offering abortions within 10 weeks (I imagine 1st trimester), and medical assesement related to birth, all free of charge.

    http://www.prensalibre.com/las-huell...esa-pro-aborto

    http://elperiodico.com.gt/pais/2017/...tar-pacientes/

    Guatemalans in general (being one of THE most conservative of Latin peoples), yeah, they did not take too kindly this, most of them have expressed indignation. Most newspapers are either being neutral about it, with a select few defending the move as bold and brave and much needed (In particular, two progressively leaning newspapers, Plaza Publica and Nómada). The Minister of Defense quickly stated that the President has already given the order to impede anyone attempting to reach the boat (I imagine within the standard 22km from the shoreline as per UN Convention on the Law of the Sea).

    On the one hand, it bothers me greatly, that organizations like these, will recur to tactics like these. I am pro-life for sure, but mind you, I am of the pro-life that argues not merely for being "anti-abortion", I am pro-life that the child merits the dignity of being raised properly, committing in giving what resources are needed to care for the child, wholesome life (I really have a strong distaste for partial pro-lifers that reduce pro-life doctrine to fundamentally prevent abortions. If you champion life, champion it COMPLETELY, not just merely at it's conception).

    But on the other hand, my country has a huge problem that a good portion of births (usually numbering in the thousands) tend to happen to girls well below the age of 17, usually by degenerate family members, essentially endangering their very lives of these young girls. Even the ones who survive, their lives become fundamentally compromised, teenagehood robbed, damned to perpetual poverty (both young mother and child). We are essentially in rock bottom in terms of preventing these rapes, perpetually made worse with the rampant male chauvinism and abysmally poor education. It pisses me off that more stigma and shame is placed on these poor girls while the degenerate fathers, uncles, cousins, or even brothers who tend to commit them, tend to walk scots free (the families essentially keep secret who the rapist is, under the pretense that you CAN'T shame the male members of the house... horrible double standard). It's a problem of long held degenerate institutions, of the things I must confess, are fundamentally wrong and messed up with my people (The root of the problem). Because of the commonality of these kinds of conceptions, and considering your average Guatemalan lives in dirt poor conditions (and thus unable to sustain satisfactory both young mother and child), under-aged birth IS one circumstance where I for one merit the necessity of an abortion (many girls are dying as I speak or are permanently physically stunted because of these births). Drastic solution for a drastic problem. Regrettably, it only prevents the symptom (alleviating a bit the problem), and doesn't effectively fight the root cause; Accountability within family, Male chauvinism, little to no sex education, and basically, NOT policing our own boys and men, not teaching them proper masculine virtues (starting with DO NOT TOUCH THE GIRLS OR WOMEN).


    I would hope that WoW would have the discernment to consider which girls or women truly merit an abortion (especially if she is underaged), but I truly doubt they will do such a thing, ask no questions, and merely carry out the deed, merit or no merit.

    What you all think?
    Last edited by Andius; 02-23-2017, 07:07 PM.
    Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
    As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

    "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

  • #2
    I am shocked they even dare to do this. Who is funding this?
    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

    Comment


    • #3
      sink it
      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Andius View Post
        I am unable to find an English site reporting on the event, but the Guatemalan populace and government have been notified of a Women on Waves boat that approached recently close to Guatemala with the intent of carrying out abortions. They intend to anchor for 5 days, and well beyond the reach of Guatemalan jurisdiction, but close enough to allow themselves to be reached without entering maritime boundaries of the State.

        As far as I have heard, they are only offering abortions within 10 weeks (I imagine 1st trimester), and medical assesement related to birth, all free of charge.

        http://www.prensalibre.com/las-huell...esa-pro-aborto

        http://elperiodico.com.gt/pais/2017/...tar-pacientes/

        Guatemalans in general (being one of THE most conservative of Latin peoples), yeah, they did not take too kindly this, most of them have expressed indignation. Most newspapers are either being neutral about it, with a select few defending the move as bold and brave and much needed (In particular, two progressively leaning newspapers, Plaza Publica and Nómada). The Minister of Defense quickly stated that the President has already given the order to impede anyone attempting to reach the boat (I imagine within the standard 22km from the shoreline as per UN Convention on the Law of the Sea).

        On the one hand, it bothers me greatly, that organizations like these, will recur to tactics like these. I am pro-life for sure, but mind you, I am of the pro-life that argues not merely for being "anti-abortion", I am pro-life that the child merits the dignity of being raised properly, committing in giving what resources are needed to care for the child, wholesome life (I really have a strong distaste for partial pro-lifers that reduce pro-life doctrine to fundamentally prevent abortions. If you champion life, champion it COMPLETELY, not just merely at it's conception).

        But on the other hand, my country has a huge problem that a good portion of births (usually numbering in the thousands) tend to happen to girls well below the age of 17, usually by degenerate family members, essentially endangering their very lives of these young girls. Even the ones who survive, their lives become fundamentally compromised, teenagehood robbed, damned to perpetual poverty (both young mother and child). We are essentially in rock bottom in terms of preventing these rapes, perpetually made worse with the rampant male chauvinism and abysmally poor education. It pisses me off that more stigma and shame is placed on these poor girls while the degenerate fathers, uncles, cousins, or even brothers who tend to commit them, tend to walk scots free (the families essentially keep secret who the rapist is, under the pretense that you CAN'T shame the male members of the house... horrible double standard). It's a problem of long held degenerate institutions, of the things I must confess, are fundamentally wrong and messed up with my people (The root of the problem). Because of the commonality of these kinds of conceptions, and considering your average Guatemalan lives in dirt poor conditions (and thus unable to sustain satisfactory both young mother and child), under-aged birth IS one circumstance where I for one merit the necessity of an abortion (many girls are dying as I speak or are permanently physically stunted because of these births). Drastic solution for a drastic problem. Regrettably, it only prevents the symptom (alleviating a bit the problem), and doesn't effectively fight the root cause; Accountability within family, Male chauvinism, little to no sex education, and basically, NOT policing our own boys and men, not teaching them proper masculine virtues (starting with DO NOT TOUCH THE GIRLS OR WOMEN).


        I would hope that WoW would have the discernment to consider which girls or women truly merit an abortion (especially if she is underaged), but I truly doubt they will do such a thing, ask no questions, and merely carry out the deed, merit or no merit.

        What you all think?
        All that money they already wasted on getting the boat there and the abortion implements and legal stuff and everything else, they should have used it on funding sexual education and organizations that attack the social issues that you describe as the causes of what is, as you argue, an effect -- and I doubt unwanted pregnancies are the only thing they would fix like that. They really need to look up and see the bigger picture which you just painted, if they really want to help "Third Worlders" (I say those words with all the irony you can imagine, as a Latin American myself).
        We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
        - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
        In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
        Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
          I am shocked they even dare to do this. Who is funding this?
          Anyone "charitable" enough to support the Women on Waves organization.

          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          sink it
          Even if given the chance.... The "Mighty Guatemalan Armada" is practically... how do I put it.... basically this....

          P1210075.JPG

          Best weapon system: Foul language.
          Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
          As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

          "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bisto View Post
            All that money they already wasted on getting the boat there and the abortion implements and legal stuff and everything else, they should have used it on funding sexual education and organizations that attack the social issues that you describe as the causes of what is, as you argue, an effect -- and I doubt unwanted pregnancies are the only thing they would fix like that. They really need to look up and see the bigger picture which you just painted, if they really want to help "Third Worlders" (I say those words with all the irony you can imagine, as a Latin American myself).
            Now THAT would have been a finer goal, considering that I also favor sex education proper, although considering they have no experience in here, I would prefer that they direct those funds with already existing organization pushing and giving proper sex education (What may work for developed nations, not necessarily a good idea outside of them, context is everything).

            The problem though, even if they did that, there is a LOT of resistance from your average Guatemalan in accepting sex education from institutions, and even less so from schools. They insist on restricting it only at universities... genius... but something is better than nothing I suppose. But true true, it's a symptom that they seek to repress, not the heart of it (arguably in both it's justifiable and unjustifiable forms). Proper help for us "Third Worlders" heheheheheheh ;) (Definately I imagine it).

            EDIT: Huh, an update. It seems that they actually intend to carry out these operations within maritime boundaries, and they claim they have paperwork to back up their legality as an NGO, and operate within the restrictions of Guatemalan law, which in a nutshell; abortion via pills are actually legal here, and 1st trimester abortions are legal. Protests have cropped up demanding the boat to beat it, and the government intends to simply NOT sanction any transport of people towards the WoW boat.
            Last edited by Andius; 02-24-2017, 12:15 AM.
            Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
            As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

            "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

            Comment


            • #7
              Don't reward leftist stunts with compromise. It just encourages them to keep tying abortion to other issues like child support and contraception.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Don't reward leftist stunts with compromise. It just encourages them to keep tying abortion to other issues like child support and contraception.
                Well Catholic and Protestant activists here at home are already at it (your average Guatemalan is conservative to a fault, heheheh, and hardly sympathetic towards abortions) . And yep, no compromise, and catchy slogan to go with it to: "¡BARCO DE MUERTE FUERA!" ,"MURDER BOAT OUT!!".

                http://elperiodico.com.gt/pais/2017/...teco-san-jose/

                EDIT And it even looks like the government will have none of it either; Edgar Ramón (a State lawyer) has already petitioned to the Constitution Court (Not exactly the Supreme Court here, but it is the entity that regulates the interpretation of the Constitution) that the boat is breaching Guatemalan Law and proceed to drive it out of the territory. Coupled with the presidential orders to not transport anyone to the boat, and now this, yeah... it looks like the boat might get chased away the same way it got chased away on Moroccan shores in 2009.....
                Last edited by Andius; 02-24-2017, 12:49 AM.
                Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
                As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

                "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Andius View Post
                  ... On the one hand, it bothers me greatly, that organizations like these, will recur to tactics like these. I am pro-life for sure, but mind you, I am of the pro-life that argues not merely for being "anti-abortion", I am pro-life that the child merits the dignity of being raised properly, committing in giving what resources are needed to care for the child, wholesome life (I really have a strong distaste for partial pro-lifers that reduce pro-life doctrine to fundamentally prevent abortions. If you champion life, champion it COMPLETELY, not just merely at it's conception).
                  I applaud this position. Are there churches running orphanages, homes for unwed mothers, or other efforts to deal with the horrible social issue you've described?

                  Originally posted by Andius View Post
                  ... Because of the commonality of these kinds of conceptions, and considering your average Guatemalan lives in dirt poor conditions (and thus unable to sustain satisfactory both young mother and child), under-aged birth IS one circumstance where I for one merit the necessity of an abortion (many girls are dying as I speak or are permanently physically stunted because of these births). Drastic solution for a drastic problem. ...
                  I am not well informed about the medical conditions and risks of underage pregnancy. I suppose one must balance that with the mortality of unsafe abortions.

                  See, for example, this paragraph from a WHO Fact Sheet on Adolescent Pregnancy:
                  Pregnancy and childbirth complications are the second cause of death among 15 to 19 year olds globally. However, there have been significant drops in the number of deaths in all regions since 2000, most notably in South-East Asia where mortality rates fell from 21 to 9 per 100 000 girls. Some 3 million unsafe abortions among girls aged 15 to 19 take place each year, contributing to maternal deaths and to lasting health problems.

                  How many of these deaths were were due to allowing the pregnancy to take its natural course and how many were due to unsafe abortions? How does this compare with even younger girls?
                  The 2014 World Health Statistics indicate that the average global birth rate among 15 to 19 year olds is 49 per 1000 girls. Country rates range from 1 to 299 births per 1000 girls, with the highest rates in sub-Saharan Africa.

                  This description of the problem in Columbia sounds very similar to what you have described. They have recorded 6,389 births to 10-14 year-old mothers in 2013. There 19.5% of teenage girls had been pregnant at least once and 36% of teenage pregnancies in Colombia end in (mostly illegal) abortions.

                  Originally posted by Andius View Post
                  I would hope that WoW would have the discernment to consider which girls or women truly merit an abortion (especially if she is underaged), but I truly doubt they will do such a thing, ask no questions, and merely carry out the deed, merit or no merit.

                  What you all think?
                  I think we need boatloads of nuns to run orphanages and homes for unwed mothers and to teach a Christian ethic of sexuality
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The Unloved Boat.
                    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just dress up some soldiers as women go out there and take over the ship. If they complain tell them that they are self-identifying as women for the purposes of the raid.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        … to empower women to exercise their human rights to physical and mental autonomy. This is a cause that ought to be supported by everyone.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the Guatemalan government can still prosecute those who get abortions and sue the ship. If someone leaves the country to commit a crime, they are still citizens of that country and the country has jurisdiction over them. If not they could just drive a boat 3 miles off shore and murder anyone they wanted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            … to empower women to exercise their human rights to physical and mental autonomy. This is a cause that ought to be supported by everyone.
                            Even if one were to agree with you on seeing abortion as this, I'm sure you'll agree with the OP on where the real problem lies and what should really be attacked, if these people are so willing to share their money and resources to improve Guatemalan people's well-being. They are just being inefficient with regards to what is, no doubt, their greater goal.

                            In other words, even if they could abort every unwanted baby in the country, you still have underaged girls in family contexts where they got raped or otherwise got unwanted pregnancies, in a culture that allows it, and people who could use the resources to fight THESE things. What is more important to you, to abort N babies today, or prevent 2N+ unwanted pregnancies on the middle and long term -- while helping to improve the quality of life of all the 3N+ women involved? Give me your best utilitarianism here.
                            Last edited by Bisto; 02-24-2017, 09:36 PM.
                            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                            Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              I applaud this position. Are there churches running orphanages, homes for unwed mothers, or other efforts to deal with the horrible social issue you've described?
                              Of course! Both Christian and secular institutions are in the works (One example I can think of is UNICEF's institutions https://www.unicef.org/lac/F-Guatemala-B.pdf ). At the moment, I cannot say how effective they have been in mitigating the root problems, I would hope something at least.

                              I am not well informed about the medical conditions and risks of underage pregnancy. I suppose one must balance that with the mortality of unsafe abortions.

                              See, for example, this paragraph from a WHO Fact Sheet on Adolescent Pregnancy:
                              Pregnancy and childbirth complications are the second cause of death among 15 to 19 year olds globally. However, there have been significant drops in the number of deaths in all regions since 2000, most notably in South-East Asia where mortality rates fell from 21 to 9 per 100 000 girls. Some 3 million unsafe abortions among girls aged 15 to 19 take place each year, contributing to maternal deaths and to lasting health problems.

                              How many of these deaths were were due to allowing the pregnancy to take its natural course and how many were due to unsafe abortions? How does this compare with even younger girls?
                              At the moment, this is the data I can pull at short notice (I would need a bit of time to dig English language reports), primarily from USAID here in Guatemala. I apologize for the bulkiness of the report, complex issues regrettably demand extensive coverage to see the whole picture:

                              https://www.usaid.gov/sites/default/...APRIL-2016.pdf

                              To cover the relevant points, in 2015, 113 deaths are reported for every 100,000 live births, and it is taking into account women between the ages of 15-49, so no doubt some girls well below the age of 18 are amongst the 600-700 yearly dead that regrettably occur....

                              I do apologize, but I can't find English resources that do present teenage birth data here in Guatemala, but I can tell you that from this source: http://www.osarguatemala.org/Archivo...510/289_21.pdf (From observatorio de salud reproductiva, Reproductive Health Observatory):

                              In a nutshell, from January to August 2015, 4,431 teenage births were registered, 4,431 girls whom in my eyes, are or went through great danger.

                              Doesn't help Guatemala is one of the WORST in the region in terms of these kinds of pregnancies, at the rock bottom compared to the neighbors.

                              http://www.coha.org/why-is-guatemala...so-high/#_ftn1

                              That ought to give you a gist on the gravity of the situation experienced here in my corner of the world.

                              The 2014 World Health Statistics indicate that the average global birth rate among 15 to 19 year olds is 49 per 1000 girls. Country rates range from 1 to 299 births per 1000 girls, with the highest rates in sub-Saharan Africa.

                              This description of the problem in Columbia sounds very similar to what you have described. They have recorded 6,389 births to 10-14 year-old mothers in 2013. There 19.5% of teenage girls had been pregnant at least once and 36% of teenage pregnancies in Colombia end in (mostly illegal) abortions.

                              I think we need boatloads of nuns to run orphanages and homes for unwed mothers and to teach a Christian ethic of sexuality
                              There's that yes.... but we are going to need a whole lot more than just that, which mitigate the symptoms. There's been progress, like the State FINALLY prohibiting child marriages a year ago (better late than ever), and attempting to dismantle and discredit cultural institutions like those child marriages and much of the toxic "Machismo" that has served to protect degenerate family members (Knowing they can get away with rape tends to perpetuate this madness). I mean, in 2015 of the 21,000 individuals reported for sexual abuse crimes, only 1,250 some were actually sentenced something (be it jail or a large compensation), that's how messed up the Justice System here is... there is very little interest to genuinely safeguard our women here.
                              Last edited by Andius; 02-24-2017, 11:12 PM.
                              Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
                              As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

                              "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

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