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California passes law restricting usage of rap lyrics in court cases

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  • California passes law restricting usage of rap lyrics in court cases

    https://pitchfork.com/news/californi...oms-signature/

    The law is expected to be signed by Gov. Newsom. The law essentially prohibits prosecutors from bringing up lyrics as evidence in cases where rappers are charged with crimes. This follows a case in Georgia where two rappers whose lyrics explicitly described criminal activities had them used against them.

    It's an interesting philosophical issue. This kind of thing isn't limited to rap. For example, Johnny Cash sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", although in that case, there was no evidence outside that song that he ever murdered someone in that city, so it wouldn't have come to court. But that does illustrate that lyrical claims and braggadocio can't always be taken literally.

    I'm not going to link to the case in Georgia but suffice it to say that the lyrics in that case were very specific and beyond a one-off statement like in the Johnny Cash song.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    https://pitchfork.com/news/californi...oms-signature/

    The law is expected to be signed by Gov. Newsom. The law essentially prohibits prosecutors from bringing up lyrics as evidence in cases where rappers are charged with crimes. This follows a case in Georgia where two rappers whose lyrics explicitly described criminal activities had them used against them.

    It's an interesting philosophical issue. This kind of thing isn't limited to rap. For example, Johnny Cash sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", although in that case, there was no evidence outside that song that he ever murdered someone in that city, so it wouldn't have come to court. But that does illustrate that lyrical claims and braggadocio can't always be taken literally.

    I'm not going to link to the case in Georgia but suffice it to say that the lyrics in that case were very specific and beyond a one-off statement like in the Johnny Cash song.
    If someone sings about actual crimes they committed and they can be linked to those crimes, then it is no different than when someone posts a video boasting of their crimes on YouTube.

    A good question is, why does anyone want to shield a violent criminal (they never sing about minor misdemeanors) who is stupid enough to willingly and openly confess? Nobody forced them to boast about it in their song.


    Final note. I was really hoping this was about a lawyer who rapped the whole time he was defending his client and questioning witnesses.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      If someone sings about actual crimes they committed and they can be linked to those crimes, then it is no different than when someone posts a video boasting of their crimes on YouTube.

      A good question is, why does anyone want to shield a violent criminal (they never sing about minor misdemeanors) who is stupid enough to willingly and openly confess? Nobody forced them to boast about it in their song.


      Final note. I was really hoping this was about a lawyer who rapped the whole time he was defending his client and questioning witnesses.
      I would hope that the idea is keep prosecutors from using general rap lyrics to prejudice a jury....but I know little of the law.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        https://pitchfork.com/news/californi...oms-signature/

        The law is expected to be signed by Gov. Newsom. The law essentially prohibits prosecutors from bringing up lyrics as evidence in cases where rappers are charged with crimes. This follows a case in Georgia where two rappers whose lyrics explicitly described criminal activities had them used against them.

        It's an interesting philosophical issue. This kind of thing isn't limited to rap. For example, Johnny Cash sang "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", although in that case, there was no evidence outside that song that he ever murdered someone in that city, so it wouldn't have come to court. But that does illustrate that lyrical claims and braggadocio can't always be taken literally.

        I'm not going to link to the case in Georgia but suffice it to say that the lyrics in that case were very specific and beyond a one-off statement like in the Johnny Cash song.
        Cash's song "Folsom Prison Blues", like many of his songs that included references to crime, was a cautionary tale and not a boast. I'll admit to not listening to much rap music (the only rap artist I like is Christian rapper John Reuben), but my impression is that when they talk about crime, it's with the intent of glorifying it.

        I personally think that using an artist's work to show his general state of mind should be fair game in court.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

          I would hope that the idea is keep prosecutors from using general rap lyrics to prejudice a jury....but I know little of the law.
          Playing unrelated music should be prohibited by the judge out-of-hand as irrelevant and not require a separate specific law.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

            I would hope that the idea is keep prosecutors from using general rap lyrics to prejudice a jury....but I know little of the law.
            Text:

            THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:




            SECTION 1.

            The Legislature finds and declares all of the following:
            (a) Existing precedent allows artists’ creative expression to be admitted as evidence in criminal proceedings without a sufficiently robust inquiry into whether such evidence introduces bias or prejudice into the proceedings. In particular, a substantial body of research shows a significant risk of unfair prejudice when rap lyrics are introduced into evidence. Stuart P. Fischoff, “Gangsta’ Rap and a Murder in Bakersfield,” 29 J. Applied Soc. Psych. 795, 803 (1999); Carrie B. Fried, “Who’s Afraid of Rap? Differential Reactions to Music Lyrics.” J. Applied Soc. Psych. 29:705–721 (1999); Adam Dunbar and Charis E. Kubrin, “Imagining Violent Criminals: An Experimental Investigation of Music Stereotypes and Character Judgments,” Journal of Experimental Criminology 14:507-528 (2018).
            (b) It is the intent of this Legislature to provide a framework by which courts can ensure that the use of an accused person’s creative expression will not be used to introduce stereotypes or activate bias against the defendant, nor as character or propensity evidence; and to recognize that the use of rap lyrics and other creative expression as circumstantial evidence of motive or intent is not a sufficient justification to overcome substantial evidence that the introduction of rap lyrics creates a substantial risk of unfair prejudice.



            SEC. 2.

            Section 352.2 is added to the Evidence Code, to read:

            352.2.

            (a) In any criminal proceeding where a party seeks to admit as evidence a form of creative expression, the court, while balancing the probative value of that evidence against the substantial danger of undue prejudice under Section 352, shall consider, in addition to the factors listed in Section 352, that: (1) the probative value of such expression for its literal truth or as a truthful narrative is minimal unless that expression is created near in time to the charged crime or crimes, bears a sufficient level of similarity to the charged crime or crimes, or includes factual detail not otherwise publicly available; and (2) undue prejudice includes, but is not limited to, the possibility that the trier of fact will, in violation of Section 1101, treat the expression as evidence of the defendant’s propensity for violence or general criminal disposition as well as the possibility that the evidence will explicitly or implicitly inject racial bias into the proceedings.
            (b) If proffered, proffered and relevant to the issues in the case, the court shall consider all of the following: the following as well as any additional relevant evidence offered by either party:
            (1) Credible testimony on the genre of creative expression as to the social or cultural context, rules, conventions, and artistic techniques of the expression.
            (2) Experimental or social science research demonstrating that the introduction of a particular type of expression explicitly or implicitly introduces racial bias into the proceedings.
            (3) Evidence to rebut such research or testimony.
            (c) For purposes of this section, “creative expression” means the expression or application of creativity or imagination in the production or arrangement of forms, sounds, words, movements, or symbols, including, but not limited to, music, dance, performance art, visual art, poetry, literature, film, and other such objects or media.
            (d) The question of the admissibility of a form of creative expression shall be heard in limine and determined by the court, outside the presence and hearing of the jury, pursuant to Section 402. The court shall state on the record its ruling and its reasons therefor.




            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Cash's song "Folsom Prison Blues", like many of his songs that included references to crime, was a cautionary tale and not a boast. I'll admit to not listening to much rap music (the only rap artist I like is Christian rapper John Reuben), but my impression is that when they talk about crime, it's with the intent of glorifying it.

              I personally think that using an artist's work to show his general state of mind should be fair game in court.
              Yeah, it's an aspiring gangstas dream to do a drive by. Street cred.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                If someone sings about actual crimes they committed and they can be linked to those crimes, then it is no different than when someone posts a video boasting of their crimes on YouTube.

                A good question is, why does anyone want to shield a violent criminal (they never sing about minor misdemeanors) who is stupid enough to willingly and openly confess? Nobody forced them to boast about it in their song.


                Final note. I was really hoping this was about a lawyer who rapped the whole time he was defending his client and questioning witnesses.
                ^That.

                What has been happening is that some rappers have been bragging about their crimes in their songs. That is a public confession. So of course it should be used in a court case. I have no idea how such a law was passed. Idiots. Of course they would have to have other evidence that the lyrics corroborate, You couldn't just have a case with no evidence and then arrest a rapper who sung a song about it.


                Last edited by Sparko; 08-24-2022, 07:00 AM.

                Comment


                • #9

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    ^That.

                    What has been happening is that some rappers have been bragging about their crimes in their songs. That is a public confession. So of course it should be used in a court case. I have no idea how such a law was passed. Idiots. Of course they would have to have other evidence that the lyrics corroborate, You couldn't just have a case with no evidence and then arrest a rapper who sung a song about it.


                    The song is originally by the reggae legend Bob Marley, and according to an ex-gf, is a veiled reference to birth control -- which Marley was against, with "sheriff" representing the doctor who prescribed it.

                    "Every time I plant a seed
                    He said, 'Kill it before it grow'"



                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                      I personally think that using an artist's work to show his general state of mind should be fair game in court.
                      Should a director that creates violent action movies have that used in evidence against them in a court trial?

                      The same with the actors who star in them. Likewise anyone who designs a violent video game.

                      Don't they also show the same "general state of mind"?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Should a director that creates violent action movies have that used in evidence against them in a court trial?

                        The same with the actors who star in them. Likewise anyone who designs a violent video game.

                        Don't they also show the same "general state of mind"?
                        If Tarantino were to be charged with some gruesome murder, I'm sure his material would be used against him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Should a director that creates violent action movies have that used in evidence against them in a court trial?

                          The same with the actors who star in them. Likewise anyone who designs a violent video game.

                          Don't they also show the same "general state of mind"?
                          I posted the text of the law. Using lyrics in this sort of way is the intention of the law. It's to avoid creating prejudicial bias. If the lyrics aren't used as direct evidence of the crime (for example lyrics are displaying knowledge that the public shouldn't be aware of), they aren't admissible as they may be prejudicial.

                          I can't disagree with that sentiment.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Should a director that creates violent action movies have that used in evidence against them in a court trial?

                            The same with the actors who star in them. Likewise anyone who designs a violent video game.

                            Don't they also show the same "general state of mind"?
                            If they are charged with a violent crime, and their artistic choices suggest a preference for that sort of behavior, then certainly it should be used to demonstrate to the jury their general state of mind. It would be no different than using a defendant's social media posts or other public statements for the same purposes.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                              If Tarantino were to be charged with some gruesome murder, I'm sure his material would be used against him.
                              I doubt a judge would permit it unless there was something in the movie that linked him to a case, such as depicting a murder and providing details never made public.

                              If they did allow it, I would think that would be sufficient grounds for dismissal and getting a retrial if he were convicted.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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