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Taken out of context apparently, but an unfortunate reference.

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Once again, historians writing biographies of Hitler refer to his oratorical skills and the importance these had on his success.

    Should Richard Evans, Joachim Fest, or Ian Kershaw be deemed admirers of Hitler because they mention that he possessed those skills?
    Rationalize and excuse make all you want. Have they ever claimed what you did? You know:

    "I have not repeatedly praised Hitler."


    When the fact is you have as was clearly demonstrated.



    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      The evidence for a late addition of the forgiven adulteress, the most compelling being that it doesn't always appear in the same place, seems sound enough.
      I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        I don't know of anyone who does not agree that the Pericope Adulterae is a later addition to the text. A tradition thought too important to lose and not incorporate.
        Agreed. Not original to the text doesn't mean inauthentic, and it is a very important pericope.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Agreed. Not original to the text doesn't mean inauthentic, and it is a very important pericope.
          And confirms the idea that there was a great deal more that Jesus did that wasn't contained in the Gospels

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Rationalize and excuse make all you want. Have they ever claimed what you did? You know:

            "I have not repeatedly praised Hitler."


            When the fact is you have as was clearly demonstrated.

            And I have followed that comment by references to his monstrous beliefs and ideas.

            However, the fact remains that Hitler was a skilled orator and knew how to "work" a crowd and those skills [that he honed in his early years] helped in his success.

            Had he been a rambling incoherent and somewhat "boring" speaker [like some of the individuals he denigrated] suspect he would not have engendered the same degree of "enthusiasm" amongst his audiences.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              And I have followed that comment by references to his monstrous beliefs and ideas.

              However, the fact remains that Hitler was a skilled orator and knew how to "work" a crowd and those skills [that he honed in his early years] helped in his success.

              Had he been a rambling incoherent and somewhat "boring" speaker [like some of the individuals he denigrated] suspect he would not have engendered the same degree of "enthusiasm" amongst his audiences.
              I'm not saying that you are a Hitler supporter, but just like the person in the OP, you made remarks (several times) that can be seen as "praising" Hitler when removed from their context.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                There are enough New Testament references showing that Jesus was God before his conception and after his resurrection, but I'm not aware of any New Testament reference that claims Jesus of Nazareth (birth to execution) was God.
                Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  And confirms the idea that there was a great deal more that Jesus did that wasn't contained in the Gospels
                  Scripture Verse: John 21:25

                  Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    Jesus made a number of statements that were clearly understood by his listeners to be claims of divinity. See John 10 for one example.
                    Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)

                    Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

                    How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.

                    Then there is Hebrews 2:9 - "It was necessary that he be made for a time lesser than the angels."
                    Last edited by tabibito; 08-24-2022, 08:06 AM.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Clearly not the case. Even his disciples thought of him as a prophet (viz Luke 24:19)

                      Ah yes. John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

                      How does that work with Jesus declaring that the claim to be a son of God is not a claim to be God? (the people who received the scripture were termed gods: John 10:35) . Anyone who accepted Christ was given authority to become a son of God (John 1:12), Adam was termed a son of God (Luke 3:38), and most compellingly, Jesus asking the Father to make the disciples one (John 17:11) even as Jesus and the Father are one (not a matter of ontology) and soon thereafter that the disciples be made one with himself and the Father just as he and the Father were one (John 17: 21); likewise, not a matter of ontology.
                      Again, look at how Jesus' listeners responded. The pharisees in John 10 were getting ready to execute him on spot because "You, a mere man, claim to be God." Is it your contention that they misunderstood what he was saying? If that's the case, then why didn't Jesus say, "Woah, cool your jets, fellas, that's not what I meant..."

                      And in John 14, when his disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus plainly stated, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."

                      Elsewhere in scripture, Jesus offers forgiveness for sins which is the exclusive purview of God. For instance, in Matthew 9, Jesus told a man that his sins were forgiven, and the pharisees called it blasphemy. Again, is it your argument that they misunderstood?

                      The New Testament is very clear on this point: Jesus and God were one in the same.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Really? Are you denying that the opening verses of the gospel of Luke do not exist? And where does Jesus ever state I am god in any of the canonical gospels?

                        He doesn't use those exact words but he does claim to be God in several places (e.g. "I and the Father are one"), and in other places people call him God and he doesn't object. But again that isn't a subject for CIVICS. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

                        Comment


                        • Moderated By: Sparko



                          If you guys want to discuss religion, start a new thread in a religious area not CIVICS

                          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.



                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            Again, look at how Jesus' listeners responded. The pharisees in John 10 were getting ready to execute him on spot because "You, a mere man, claim to be God." Is it your contention that they misunderstood what he was saying? If that's the case, then why didn't Jesus say, "Woah, cool your jets, fellas, that's not what I meant..."
                            That is what he did do. After his response they were still acting against him, but no longer trying to stone him.

                            And in John 14, when his disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus plainly stated, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father."
                            If that is to be interpreted along the lines that you suggest, Jesus wasn't claiming just that he was God, but that he was the Father.

                            Elsewhere in scripture, Jesus offers forgiveness for sins which is the exclusive purview of God. For instance, in Matthew 9, Jesus told a man that his sins were forgiven, and the pharisees called it blasphemy. Again, is it your argument that they misunderstood?
                            Either they misunderstood, or Jesus did not bestow the authority to forgive sins on his disciples (John 20:22). If he bestowed that authority to forgive sins on men, that authority quite clearly is not restricted to God. John 20:22 indicates that the authority to forgive sins is bestowed on men by the Holy Spirit.



                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Moderated By: Sparko



                              If you guys want to discuss religion, start a new thread in a religious area not CIVICS

                              ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                              Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                              Are you able to transfer it as a derail thread?
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                He doesn't use those exact words
                                Precisely. Thank you for that confirmation.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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