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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Even higher than when most of the labor force belonged to a union?
    Gallup: Approval of Labor Unions at Highest Point Since 1965

    The peak approval was 75% in the 50s and then it gradually dropped across the 60s and 70s. It's currently at 68% approval and has been trending upwards.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • In my experience, unions encourage lazy workers.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        In my experience, unions encourage lazy workers.
        I'm sorry to hear that someone encouraged you rather than discouraged you.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
          I'm sorry to hear that someone encouraged you rather than discouraged you.
          I've never been part of a union, but I have worked with union employees, so I know first hand how bad they can be.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • That's a far cry from your initial claim.

            I'm not surprised that "approval" of unions is up given how companies, with government support, has ridden roughshod over many workers the past couple of years. The question is, does that approval transform into people joining unions.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              In my experience, unions encourage lazy workers.
              Worse, they discourage those who want to work hard and move up. They don't want you making others look bad.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                That's a far cry from your initial claim.
                Wrong.

                I'm not surprised that "approval" of unions is up given how companies, with government support, has ridden roughshod over many workers the past couple of years. The question is, does that approval transform into people joining unions.
                It seems to be so far. Lots of places are newly unionizing.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  In my experience, unions encourage lazy workers.
                  I can't disparage unions too much because they helped to create the middle class we have in this country. It was also the source of dissent in Poland that the communists couldn't contain and was instrumental in their downfall.

                  I worked in a construction union for about a year when I was a teen and I hated it. It wasn't for me. But they have a place in the right circumstances.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                    I can't disparage unions too much because they helped to create the middle class we have in this country. It was also the source of dissent in Poland that the communists couldn't contain and was instrumental in their downfall.

                    I worked in a construction union for about a year when I was a teen and I hated it. It wasn't for me. But they have a place in the right circumstances.
                    One of the major reasons unions all but died in the private sector is that they were corrupt through and through. If they weren't outright controlled by organized crime, they were deeply tied to it.

                    When I moved here in the early 70s Lockheed was by far and away the major employer in the county and everyone who worked there was union. All my friends who worked there sang the praises of their union -- but by the end of the 90s I didn't know anyone who worked there who was still in the union.

                    The death knell was a strike called that lasted two months and when it was over all the membership got was two months wages lost. That was because the company effectively bribed the union bosses to call for the strike because they needed to decrease expenses. So for two months when the workers were striking and struggling to get by, Lockheed didn't have to pay any of their hourly workers.

                    After that union membership started to drop like someone pulled the floor out from under it.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                      I can't disparage unions too much because they helped to create the middle class we have in this country. It was also the source of dissent in Poland that the communists couldn't contain and was instrumental in their downfall.

                      I worked in a construction union for about a year when I was a teen and I hated it. It wasn't for me. But they have a place in the right circumstances.
                      Unions have the most benefit the more "replaceable" the workers are. Unskilled/low skilled workers are very replaceable, and as such, have very little power to negotiate salaries, working conditions, etc. As such, there is great benefit in them coming together as a group and negotiating as a group. A company might be able to fire a single (or a few) workers that they can replace easily with a couple of weeks of training, but it can't afford to do that with an entire workforce.

                      On the other hand, unions are not as much of a benefit to skilled labor. Skilled labor is harder to replace, takes more time to replace, and may end up creating hardship for the company. As such, they are on much more even footing with companies that want to hire them.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        One of the major reasons unions all but died in the private sector is that they were corrupt through and through. If they weren't outright controlled by organized crime, they were deeply tied to it.

                        When I moved here in the early 70s Lockheed was by far and away the major employer in the county and everyone who worked there was union. All my friends who worked there sang the praises of their union -- but by the end of the 90s I didn't know anyone who worked there who was still in the union.

                        The death knell was a strike called that lasted two months and when it was over all the membership got was two months wages lost. That was because the company effectively bribed the union bosses to call for the strike because they needed to decrease expenses. So for two months when the workers were striking and struggling to get by, Lockheed didn't have to pay any of their hourly workers.

                        After that union membership started to drop like someone pulled the floor out from under it.
                        Well, I know that not all unions are corrupt. My father was a union honcho in southern California for most of his life and he wasn't corrupt. He fought for the workers because that's where he rose up from. It was at his urging that I tried union work for a year and told him to "keep it" because I would rather fight for my own worth.

                        One thing about my father that I found interesting was that he adopted to the times. He didn't stick with an ideology forever because (as he'd say) the times affect ideologies. Like in the late 1800s, unions were necessary because industry barons ran the country and sweatshops were the rule. He considered them less necessary as time went on, and by the 1970s when I declined he admitted that they weren't as necessary as they once were. So he went from Democrat to Republican to Libertarian to independent in his lifetime because times changed (he also went through six marriages so maybe he was just plain flighty).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                          Unions have the most benefit the more "replaceable" the workers are. Unskilled/low skilled workers are very replaceable, and as such, have very little power to negotiate salaries, working conditions, etc. As such, there is great benefit in them coming together as a group and negotiating as a group. A company might be able to fire a single (or a few) workers that they can replace easily with a couple of weeks of training, but it can't afford to do that with an entire workforce.

                          On the other hand, unions are not as much of a benefit to skilled labor. Skilled labor is harder to replace, takes more time to replace, and may end up creating hardship for the company. As such, they are on much more even footing with companies that want to hire them.
                          That's one reason why I opted out. For a union to be beneficial for me would mean my expertise was lacking. It doesn't do much for a person's self esteem if they have to be part of a flock to have a sense of worth. You might say "Hey, I connect widgets better than anybody else in the factory", but the sad fact is that anybody can connect a widget.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                            Well, I know that not all unions are corrupt. My father was a union honcho in southern California for most of his life and he wasn't corrupt. He fought for the workers because that's where he rose up from. It was at his urging that I tried union work for a year and told him to "keep it" because I would rather fight for my own worth.

                            One thing about my father that I found interesting was that he adopted to the times. He didn't stick with an ideology forever because (as he'd say) the times affect ideologies. Like in the late 1800s, unions were necessary because industry barons ran the country and sweatshops were the rule. He considered them less necessary as time went on, and by the 1970s when I declined he admitted that they weren't as necessary as they once were. So he went from Democrat to Republican to Libertarian to independent in his lifetime because times changed (he also went through six marriages so maybe he was just plain flighty).
                            One honest person does not keep an institution from being corrupt to its core.

                            If they were still helping the workers they would still be a force to be reckoned with. But that stopped being their primary concern as we can see from the results.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                              That's one reason why I opted out. For a union to be beneficial for me would mean my expertise was lacking. It doesn't do much for a person's self esteem if they have to be part of a flock to have a sense of worth. You might say "Hey, I connect widgets better than anybody else in the factory", but the sad fact is that anybody can connect a widget.
                              True, though, of course the union benefits anytime there is an imbalance. IT Programmers might be skilled, but I'd say at someplace like google, the union would probably be worthwhile. Why? IT programmers WANT to work at google (or at least did), therefore, they are in a similar situation as your "widget connector".

                              It all boils down to this:
                              Unions balance negotiating power when supply/demand of labor creates an imbalance in negotiating power.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                                I can't disparage unions too much because they helped to create the middle class we have in this country. It was also the source of dissent in Poland that the communists couldn't contain and was instrumental in their downfall.

                                I worked in a construction union for about a year when I was a teen and I hated it. It wasn't for me. But they have a place in the right circumstances.
                                Unions served a very important role in this country at one time, but that time is long in the past. These days, they are a hindrance to good business at best, and little better than organized crime at the worst. A project manager for an event production company I used to work for always put "grease money" in his budget so that he could bribe the local unions. Otherwise, they could force you to wait for hours to unload your truck despite the fact that there were a dozen empty bays. But hand the dock foreman a clipboard with a couple hundred dollars hidden under the top sheet of paper, and suddenly, "You know what? A bay just opened up, and we can get you unloaded right away."

                                Another favorite of the union workers was if they were given an hour for lunch, that meant they had a God given right to have their butt planted in the lunchroom for one hour, so they would demand being released from work 15 minutes before lunch so they had time to wash their hands, saunter to their locker, get their lunch, saunter to the lunch room, sit down, and only then did their lunch break officially begin. Of course after lunch, they wanted an additional 15 minutes to reverse the process, so even though the schedule said "Lunch break - one hour", they always got one and a half hours.

                                They also had a habit of over-crewing, so if a job only needed two people, four or five people would show up. One time we had our company engineer onsite to run video and audio cable across a convention hall, and he asked for one guy to help. The union sent three guys who proceeded to complain about how hard the job was going to be, that it would take them all day, that they couldn't possibly get started until they had discussed the exact procedure, and so on. Our engineer got fed up and said, "You know what, let's do this tomorrow. I have other things I need to do." He went back that evening after the union workers had left for the day and did the job himself in a couple of hours.

                                I have many other stories. Needless to say, my experience with unions has left a bad taste in my mouth.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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