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The Orbanisation of America

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Yes I think a problem with the analyses HA has been posting is they don't do much to distinguish US progressivism from US conservatism, and in failing to do so they miss some fundamental political ideas.

    The underlying fundamental of left-wing politics is opposition to the elites and wanting more equality of power and wealth, seeking to distribute power among all the people. Any definition of 'populism' which conflates that core left-wing goal of actual populism, with the right-wing's occasional fake populism, is problematic. The right-wing's tendency to find charismatic billionaire/millionaire elites (e.g. Trump, Tucker etc) who trick their followers into thinking that society's ills aren't caused by those with money and power who control society but are instead caused by some disliked minority group with no money and no power (e.g. immigrants, transgender people etc), and that the solution is to give elites tax cuts and deregulation, and to crack down hard on the disliked minority groups... is a very different type of 'populism' to the left-wing's idea of actually wanting to oppose elites and help the masses.

    Unfortunately it's a common take by champagne-drinking centrist elites to look down their noses at both those groups and say that everything's fine, and that therefore the leftist progressives are terrible for trying to take some of the wealth and power away from those elites and share it with the commoners, and that the right-wing demagogues are terrible for demonizing the harmless minorities with no money and no power. The centrist elites have a tendency to call both 'populism' and oppose both, but they are two very different phenomena. Unfortunately at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, if those champagne drinking elitist centrists are forced to pick a side, they tend to selfishly prefer the right-wing demagogues who are hurting harmless minorities with no money and no power over the left wing progressives who would cause the elitist centrists themselves to have to share some of their money and power with the masses.
    Wow. It's like reading a parody of what a liberal in the 1950s would have said.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Yes I think a problem with the analyses HA has been posting is they don't do much to distinguish US progressivism from US conservatism, and in failing to do so they miss some fundamental political ideas.

      The underlying fundamental of left-wing politics is opposition to the elites and wanting more equality of power and wealth, seeking to distribute power among all the people. Any definition of 'populism' which conflates that core left-wing goal of actual populism, with the right-wing's occasional fake populism, is problematic. The right-wing's tendency to find charismatic billionaire/millionaire elites (e.g. Trump, Tucker etc) who trick their followers into thinking that society's ills aren't caused by those with money and power who control society but are instead caused by some disliked minority group with no money and no power (e.g. immigrants, transgender people etc), and that the solution is to give elites tax cuts and deregulation, and to crack down hard on the disliked minority groups... is a very different type of 'populism' to the left-wing's idea of actually wanting to oppose elites and help the masses.

      Unfortunately it's a common take by champagne-drinking centrist elites to look down their noses at both those groups and say that everything's fine, and that therefore the leftist progressives are terrible for trying to take some of the wealth and power away from those elites and share it with the commoners, and that the right-wing demagogues are terrible for demonizing the harmless minorities with no money and no power. The centrist elites have a tendency to call both 'populism' and oppose both, but they are two very different phenomena. Unfortunately at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, if those champagne drinking elitist centrists are forced to pick a side, they tend to selfishly prefer the right-wing demagogues who are hurting harmless minorities with no money and no power over the left wing progressives who would cause the elitist centrists themselves to have to share some of their money and power with the masses.
      I also would suggest that a "melancholia" for a perceived but inaccurate version of a past period, also plays a part.

      Recent reading has illustrated a similar tendency in the UK with Empire and The War [i.e. WW2] capitalised deliberately. Both of which bear little resemblance to the historical realities of empire and the war.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Wow. It's like reading a parody of what a liberal in the 1950s would have said.
        The fundamentals that underlie politics haven't changed much over the centuries. It's always been about whether power and wealth were confined to a small group of elites or distributed more widely.

        Ever since the French Revolution when the elites sat on the right side of the parliament and the common folk on the left, those terms have been used to describe the fundamental two sides of supporting the power and wealth of the elites versus challenging that power and wanting to see the common man empowered and enriched.

        Because power and wealth have always been fundamental to politics, that left-right difference has remained the primary factor in politics through to the present day.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          The fundamentals that underlie politics haven't changed much over the centuries. It's always been about whether power and wealth were confined to a small group of elites or distributed more widely.

          Ever since the French Revolution when the elites sat on the right side of the parliament and the common folk on the left, those terms have been used to describe the fundamental two sides of supporting the power and wealth of the elites versus challenging that power and wanting to see the common man empowered and enriched.

          Because power and wealth have always been fundamental to politics, that left-right difference has remained the primary factor in politics through to the present day.
          An awful lot has changed since the 50s including some rapid fundamental shifts taking place today.

          Democrats are rapidly becoming the party of the rich elites while bleeding minority, middle-class and working-class support.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

            Nothing. The issue is not what he says, it's what he does. But I don't know who to trust on that. There seems to be some consensus that he's a Bad Guy, but mostly among the "Trump is de debbil!" crowd.
            I heard he built a wall out of evil. Or he built an evil wall. Something like that.

            As far as I know the let Hillary speak in public, so if she can speak, so can Orb​​​​an.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              I find it hilarious that the left accuses the right of fascism when they are the ones who continuously try to limit or stop free speech and force their values on everyone, destroying and "cancelling" anyone who doesn't comply.
              The Fascist Right are clearing library shelves of books they don’t like. Where books are burned, eventually people burn too.

              Trump’s shock troops are getting ready:


              The threat of political violence from far-right extremists has been growing for years, but calls to arms reached a fever pitch in pro-Trump social media after Monday’s court-ordered search at former president Donald Trump’s Florida compound: “When does the shooting start?” “Summertime was made for killing fields.” “Lock and load.” “Tomorrow is war.” “Pick up arms, people.”

              In such a dangerous and unstable time, we need political and opinion leaders to appeal for calm. Instead, Fox News and other conservative outlets exploded with talk of “war” and “assassination,” an “attack” on the country and Trump supporters, and calls for revenge against a “corrupt” American “KGB.” Elected Republicans erupted in cries about the “weaponized politicization” done by a Democratic “Gestapo” and a “tyrannical FBI,” and about the need to “make sure these tyrants pay the price.” They called for retribution: “Destroy the FBI.” “No one is safe.” “You’re next.” “They’re coming for YOU.”
              ”A House divided against itself cannot stand”, so it makes no difference what side you take, political violence takes over and the country goes to the strongest. The right wing autocrats are killing democracy, state by state.
              Last edited by firstfloor; 08-11-2022, 02:20 AM.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                The Fascist Right are clearing library shelves of books they don’t like. Where books are burned, eventually people burn too.

                Trump’s shock troops are getting ready:



                ”A House divided against itself cannot stand”, so it makes no difference what side you take, political violence takes over and the country goes to the strongest. The right wing autocrats are killing democracy, state by state.
                Oh, the left has been adamant about banning books and stuff for opinions they don't like.


                Source: https://www.newsweek.com/when-it-comes-banning-books-both-right-left-are-guilty-opinion-1696045

                But conservatives are not the only censors. Governor of California Gavin Newsom inadvertently if rather hilariously made this point when he posted a picture of himself "reading some banned books to figure out" what Republican states "are so afraid of." Apparently no one told him that the stack of books in the photo included one banned in the state he leads, To Kill a Mockingbird, which was banned from California schools on the grounds that it contained racism.

                © Copyright Original Source




                Source: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/opinions/york-pennsylvania-school-district-book-ban-parini/index.html

                But banning books is not just the product of right-wing intolerance. Many liberal parents don't want their children to encounter the N-word anywhere, not even in what is in my view the greatest American novel, "Huckleberry Finn," by Mark Twain. And so they fight to ban a novel that eloquently and passionately attacks racism in 19th-century America.
                "Of Mice and Men," an important short novel by John Steinbeck, is also frequently challenged because of its supposed racial stereotyping, even though it's a profound and humane book that raises issues every teenager should be asked to consider.
                The popular SkippyJon Jones books by Judy Schachner -- a whimsical series about a flamboyant cat who dresses up as a chihuahua -- has also been on the condemned list. SkippyJon calls himself a "bandito" and sometimes puts an "o" at the end of English words to sound Mexican. Some liberal book banners call this stereotyping, and because Schachner isn't Mexican, they accuse her of "appropriating" things from a culture that isn't hers.

                © Copyright Original Source

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

                  The Fascist Right are clearing library shelves of books they don’t like. Where books are burned, eventually people burn too.

                  Trump’s shock troops are getting ready:



                  ”A House divided against itself cannot stand”, so it makes no difference what side you take, political violence takes over and the country goes to the strongest. The right wing autocrats are killing democracy, state by state.
                  ROFL. The only right-wing violence was some goofballs invading the capital and putting their feet up on a desk. Meanwhile we had over 4 years of leftist violence burning down cities, shooting congressmen, shooting cops, and trying to start their own countries in the middle of cities, all while trying to defund the police. And more recently trying to kill Supreme Court justices because they don't like a decision.

                  3000.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=cad149cdd32937f9dc95f00eb00d2eba.jpg0320_History_Corner11_t1170.jpg?5cc718665ab672dba93d511ab4c682bb370e5f86.jpg30xp-protests-timeline-pix1-mediumSquareAt3X.jpg170816-antifa-charlottesville-ac-642p.jpggettyimages-830767670.jpg

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    ROFL. The only right-wing violence was some goofballs invading the capital and putting their feet up on a desk. Meanwhile we had over 4 years of leftist violence burning down cities, shooting congressmen, shooting cops, and trying to start their own countries in the middle of cities, all while trying to defund the police. And more recently trying to kill Supreme Court justices because they don't like a decision.

                    3000.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=cad149cdd32937f9dc95f00eb00d2eba.jpg0320_History_Corner11_t1170.jpg?5cc718665ab672dba93d511ab4c682bb370e5f86.jpg30xp-protests-timeline-pix1-mediumSquareAt3X.jpg170816-antifa-charlottesville-ac-642p.jpggettyimages-830767670.jpg
                    Just mostly peaceful and fiery but peaceful protests.





                    Serious question. Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "The Obamaization of America" every time they see it?

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                      Serious question. Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "The Obamaization of America" every time they see it?

                      Serious answer: I think so.

                      I see that your dear leader claims to be a witch.


                      The Fifth Amendment is invoked when there is a possibility of incriminating oneself in criminal activity. Trump repeatedly deferring to his constitutional protection at the interview “raises a strong inference” of liability in a civil case, where the burden of proof is much lower than in criminal court, Snell said.
                      I don’t know why you put up with him.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Serious question. Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "The Obamaization of America" every time they see it?
                        You're not the only one, and it makes more sense than whoever Orb is supposed to be.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Serious question. Am I the only one who keeps reading the thread title as "The Obamaization of America" every time they see it?
                          I see it as Urbanization of America every time.

                          Comment

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