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The Orbanisation of America

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  • #16
    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post

    So, you want to clean up this mess, however you define mess, but, does that mean that you are an Orbanist and long for strong authoritarian leadership, of the more permanent kind?
    You are other-worldly. Trump dispersed power, he didn't collect it. His SCOTUS legacy is returning power to the states - where it should be - while weakening the federal juggernaut. He has now pledged an effort to downsize the bureaucracy of agencies - the very thing that holds power over American citizens.

    Orban was just a speaker. No one invited him to seize power.
    "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
    "
    Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post

      So, you want to clean up this mess, however you define mess, but, does that mean that you are an Orbanist and long for strong authoritarian leadership, of the more permanent kind?
      I want to see Joe the Dictator out of office as soon as possible if that's what you're asking.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        I want to see Joe the Dictator out of office as soon as possible if that's what you're asking.
        That’s not what I am asking. Rather, now that you know what the New Right stands for, do you stand with them?
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post

          That’s not what I am asking. Rather, now that you know what the New Right stands for, do you stand with them?
          I'm not familiar with the term "The New Right", nor do I know what they stand for.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            Orban spoke at CPAC.
            And as other comments in this thread echo...

            At a “ladies night” fundraiser in Toronto in 2013, an up-and-coming politician was asked which nation’s administration he admired most in the world.

            Wearing a pale blue shirt and a smile, the fresh-faced Liberal Party leader answered Communist China.

            “There is a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say we need to go green, we need to start, you know, investing in solar,” Justin Trudeau told the group of women. “There is a flexibility that I know [Prime Minister] Stephen Harper must dream about: having a dictatorship where you can do whatever you wanted, that I find quite interesting.”


            It’s what you vote for but I wonder if it’s what you really want. Is there awareness among Christians of where you are headed?
            CPAC is not the Republican Party. Nor are they the Church. That CPAC has some goals in common with a right wing government agent isn't at all surprising nor is it controversial. Both see the danger in the leftist ideology, the moral decay of the Alphabet Mafia's authoritarian demands of forced public acceptance under penalty of livelihoods, rampant high taxes, the threat of illegal immigration, and some other political intersections. No one in CPAC wants a dictatorship for the US. No one in CPAC wants the government running religion. This is a guilt by association fallacy.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              Orban was just a speaker. No one invited him to seize power.
              Tucker Carlson recently spent a week in Hungary fawning over Orban and telling his viewers what a great job Orban was doing. Orban in turn praised Tucker and said that Tucker's show should be on air 24/7. So the US conservatives' relationship with Orban goes beyond him happening to be one speaker at CPAC.

              I note, by contrast, Rachael Maddow never went to Venezuela or Cuba for a week to rave about the wonderous job dictators there were doing. The Dems never invited those dictators to come speak at major Dem conferences. The US right's current love of dictators is quite unique. And, as I mentioned earlier, it's not confined to Orban: Prior to the Ukraine invasion there was a love for Putin, and people in this forum were cheering the Myanmar military's overthrow of their democratic government - there's a clear love of dictatorship on the US right so long as the dictators lean right-wing. And that is not matched by any love of dictators among the US left.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                No one in CPAC wants a dictatorship for the US. No one in CPAC wants the government running religion.
                From what I've seen various CPAC attendees say, I'm pretty sure your statements here are false. Also, since you aren't telepathic nor have conducted exhaustive polling of CPAC attendees, I'd say you have absolutely no basis for your claims and are just plain making stuff up.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  Tucker Carlson recently spent a week in Hungary fawning over Orban and telling his viewers what a great job Orban was doing. Orban in turn praised Tucker and said that Tucker's show should be on air 24/7. So the US conservatives' relationship with Orban goes beyond him happening to be one speaker at CPAC.
                  Tucker Carlson is supposed to be some sort of barometer for conservatives? And his "fawning" means conservatives want an authoritarian ruler? Ummm .... ok .....

                  I note, by contrast, Rachael Maddow never went to Venezuela or Cuba for a week to rave about the wonderous job dictators there were doing. The Dems never invited those dictators to come speak at major Dem conferences. The US right's current love of dictators is quite unique. And, as I mentioned earlier, it's not confined to Orban: Prior to the Ukraine invasion there was a love for Putin, and people in this forum were cheering the Myanmar military's overthrow of their democratic government - there's a clear love of dictatorship on the US right so long as the dictators lean right-wing. And that is not matched by any love of dictators among the US left.
                  You watch too much TV. The opinions of Carlson and Maddow mean nothing.

                  https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/conservative
                  Britannica Dictionary definition of CONSERVATIVE
                  1
                  [more conservative; most conservative] : believing in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society : relating to or supporting political conservatism


                  For a "conservative" to embrace authoritarianism runs contrary to the definition.*

                  ETA: *I can't say that it doesn't ever happen, but they are confused people if they praise freedom and authoritarianism at the same time
                  Last edited by Ronson; 08-09-2022, 05:26 PM.
                  "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                  "
                  Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    I'm not familiar with the term "The New Right", nor do I know what they stand for.
                    It is better understood as fascism. This is WaPo before CPAC:
                    In fact, most of the CPAC crowd, whose ranks are heavily populated by former president Donald Trump’s partisans, is unlikely to raise objections. To the contrary, many of Mr. Trump’s adherents, like those of Mr. Orban, are enamored of “great replacement” theorists, who regard immigration, pluralism and diversity as existential threats to Western — and White — civilization and a menace to what they consider the ethnic essence of the United States itself. Tucker Carlson, a Fox News pundit, is among the exponents of that view, and a devotee of Mr. Orban.

                    More broadly, the Hungarian premier’s stock in trade, and his apparent appeal to many on the American far right, is his deft dismantling of democratic institutions, a crusade he has undertaken in the cause of championing Christian civilization and attacking “woke” culture — which includes LGBTQ communities. He has scrapped the quaint idea that elected officials should represent all their constituents, while locking in a suite of laws, and a new constitution, that marginalize his opponents in what amount to rigged elections. Those maneuvers have left them with little chance to gain traction in campaigns or even be heard in national media outlets effectively controlled by the state.

                    Mr. Orban’s racism, embodied by his attack on the “mixed-race” menace he sees in Europe, is the antithesis of American values. It should get him disinvited from CPAC. Instead, there is every indication he will arrive in Dallas to cheers.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      From what I've seen various CPAC attendees say, I'm pretty sure your statements here are false. Also, since you aren't telepathic nor have conducted exhaustive polling of CPAC attendees, I'd say you have absolutely no basis for your claims and are just plain making stuff up.
                      Whatever you say...
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
                        It is better understood as fascism.
                        So basically what liberals consider to be a political ideal.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          Tucker Carlson is supposed to be some sort of barometer for conservatives?
                          As the highest-rated conservative political show, yes. If they didn't like what he had to say they wouldn't watch, and what he says influences their opinions.

                          And his "fawning" means conservatives want an authoritarian ruler?
                          That and the other things I listed.

                          You watch too much TV.
                          I watch zero. I don't own a TV. Unless you count the ~5 minutes of clips a day from Stephen Colbert's Late Show that I watch on youtube.

                          https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/conservative
                          Britannica Dictionary definition of CONSERVATIVE
                          1
                          [more conservative; most conservative] : believing in the value of established and traditional practices in politics and society : relating to or supporting political conservatism
                          I guess you can be the One True Conservative all you like. But the rest of us have to deal with the reality of what the group of people who call themselves conservatives actually believe, not what you personally think they theoretically ought to believe.

                          For a "conservative" to embrace authoritarianism runs contrary to the definition.*
                          Not at all. In political science 'conservativism' tends to be specifically about conserving the existing hierarchies in society. In that sense it means defending the elites and authorities against those who would prefer that authority was more distributed among the common folk. Here's wiki's first paragraph in the "Right-wing politics" article:
                          Right-wing politics are generally characterized by support for the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, authority or tradition.[4]: 693, 721 [5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or competition in market economies.[12][13][14]

                          As a general rule, by definition, conservative and right-wing politics lends itself to authoritarianism while left-wing and liberal politics does not. It's one of the basics of political science 101.

                          ETA: *I can't say that it doesn't ever happen, but they are confused people if they praise freedom and authoritarianism at the same time
                          That's generally how I would describe US 'libertarians' - confused people who both support freedom and fascism.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            As the highest-rated conservative political show, yes. If they didn't like what he had to say they wouldn't watch, and what he says influences their opinions.

                            That and the other things I listed.

                            I watch zero. I don't own a TV. Unless you count the ~5 minutes of clips a day from Stephen Colbert's Late Show that I watch on youtube.

                            I guess you can be the One True Conservative all you like. But the rest of us have to deal with the reality of what the group of people who call themselves conservatives actually believe, not what you personally think they theoretically ought to believe.

                            Not at all. In political science 'conservativism' tends to be specifically about conserving the existing hierarchies in society. In that sense it means defending the elites and authorities against those who would prefer that authority was more distributed among the common folk. Here's wiki's first paragraph in the "Right-wing politics" article:
                            Right-wing politics are generally characterized by support for the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, authority or tradition.[4]: 693, 721 [5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or competition in market economies.[12][13][14]

                            As a general rule, by definition, conservative and right-wing politics lends itself to authoritarianism while left-wing and liberal politics does not. It's one of the basics of political science 101.

                            That's generally how I would describe US 'libertarians' - confused people who both support freedom and fascism.
                            It is a very naïve view among many that strong leaders and authoritarian regimes will somehow provide the answer they are seeking to the problems they are experiencing. The further assumption that there are easy answers to complex problems that can be solved by certain political policies and approaches are adopted has been shown throughout history [and that includes purported left leaning views] to have been less than successful for the lives of ordinary people.

                            The other issue is that rights and freedoms once removed are much harder to regain. Those who advocate such policies forget that they may find themselves on the receiving end once such policies exist.

                            The truth is that democracy is fragile and we erode it at our peril.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              From what I've seen various CPAC attendees say, I'm pretty sure your statements here are false. Also, since you aren't telepathic nor have conducted exhaustive polling of CPAC attendees, I'd say you have absolutely no basis for your claims and are just plain making stuff up.
                              The appeal to "traditional values" [always a good phrase among the Right] taps into existing prejudices and biases. We are the ones who have the true and correct attitude and beliefs. They do not.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                As the highest-rated conservative political show, yes. If they didn't like what he had to say they wouldn't watch, and what he says influences their opinions.

                                That and the other things I listed.

                                I watch zero. I don't own a TV. Unless you count the ~5 minutes of clips a day from Stephen Colbert's Late Show that I watch on youtube.

                                I guess you can be the One True Conservative all you like. But the rest of us have to deal with the reality of what the group of people who call themselves conservatives actually believe, not what you personally think they theoretically ought to believe.

                                Not at all. In political science 'conservativism' tends to be specifically about conserving the existing hierarchies in society. In that sense it means defending the elites and authorities against those who would prefer that authority was more distributed among the common folk. Here's wiki's first paragraph in the "Right-wing politics" article:
                                Right-wing politics are generally characterized by support for the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, authority or tradition.[4]: 693, 721 [5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or competition in market economies.[12][13][14]

                                As a general rule, by definition, conservative and right-wing politics lends itself to authoritarianism while left-wing and liberal politics does not. It's one of the basics of political science 101.

                                That's generally how I would describe US 'libertarians' - confused people who both support freedom and fascism.
                                Cute the way the leftard infidel quotes the leftist Wokiepedia to define what right-thinkers believe.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Federalist.

                                Nationalist Christian.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Proud member of the LGBFJB community.

                                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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