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The Orbanisation of America

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  • The Orbanisation of America

    Orban spoke at CPAC.

    It’s what you vote for but I wonder if it’s what you really want. Is there awareness among Christians of where you are headed?
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

  • #2
    It's quite stunning... they seem to be taking notes from Dictator Orban of Hungary about how to achieve a similar right-wing dictatorship in the US.

    Tucker Carlson went to Hungary to ask him how it's done. Now Dictator Orban came over to speak at CPAC. In the meantime he's been telling them that control of the media is key, and that shows like Tucker's should be broadcast 24/7.

    And this is far from the first time recently that US conservatives have shown a love of open authoritarianism. There were posters in this forum who openly supposed the military in Myanmar overthrowing the democratically elected government there.

    And prior to Dictator Orban being the favorite Eastern European dictator of the US right-wing, it was Putin, with many pointing to great things Putin was doing and saying and favorably comparing the propaganda picture of him riding a horse shirtless to pictures of Obama working out at a gym. Perhaps the only positive consequence of Putin's invasion of Ukraine has been that US right-wingers are no longer so willing to openly idolize Putin, although they seem to have transferred that love to Dictator Orban.

    And today it came out US military generals were shocked and horrified when Trump complained to them that they weren't perfectly obedient the way he believed Hitler's generals had been during WWII.

    There certainly seems quite open support for dictatorship(s) among US conservatives today, and quite a prevalent view among them that it would be fine for the US to have a dictator so long as they were conservative/right-wing. Democracy often seems to be undesirable to them, because they are concerned they are in the minority and that they would lose in a democratic system due to their votes getting outnumbered by people they don't like or don't value.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      It's quite stunning... they seem to be taking notes from Dictator Orban of Hungary about how to achieve a similar right-wing dictatorship in the US.

      Tucker Carlson went to Hungary to ask him how it's done. Now Dictator Orban came over to speak at CPAC. In the meantime he's been telling them that control of the media is key, and that shows like Tucker's should be broadcast 24/7.

      And this is far from the first time recently that US conservatives have shown a love of open authoritarianism. There were posters in this forum who openly supposed the military in Myanmar overthrowing the democratically elected government there.

      And prior to Dictator Orban being the favorite Eastern European dictator of the US right-wing, it was Putin, with many pointing to great things Putin was doing and saying and favorably comparing the propaganda picture of him riding a horse shirtless to pictures of Obama working out at a gym. Perhaps the only positive consequence of Putin's invasion of Ukraine has been that US right-wingers are no longer so willing to openly idolize Putin, although they seem to have transferred that love to Dictator Orban.

      And today it came out US military generals were shocked and horrified when Trump complained to them that they weren't perfectly obedient the way he believed Hitler's generals had been during WWII.

      There certainly seems quite open support for dictatorship(s) among US conservatives today, and quite a prevalent view among them that it would be fine for the US to have a dictator so long as they were conservative/right-wing. Democracy often seems to be undesirable to them, because they are concerned they are in the minority and that they would lose in a democratic system due to their votes getting outnumbered by people they don't like or don't value.
      "Dictator"?

      Corrupt? Definitely. But a dictator? FWIU, the elections have all been aboveboard.

      Given his pork barrel spending, patronage-like political style, eroding of judicial independence, family corruption, and even anti-Americanism one would think you and other leftists would be giddy with admiration.

      Oh wait. Also gives lip service to Christian values and does not support the LGBTQ++++++++++ insanity.

      Yup. Definite dictator.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        "Dictator"?

        Corrupt? Definitely. But a dictator? FWIU, the elections have all been aboveboard.

        Given his pork barrel spending, patronage-like political style, eroding of judicial independence, family corruption, and even anti-Americanism one would think you and other leftists would be giddy with admiration.

        Oh wait. Also gives lip service to Christian values and does not support the LGBTQ++++++++++ insanity.

        Yup. Definite dictator.
        Now, if it was Fidel, were he still alive....they'd be all over him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
          Orban spoke at CPAC.

          It’s what you vote for but I wonder if it’s what you really want. Is there awareness among Christians of where you are headed?
          From a paper published this year and well worth a read.


          https://carrcenter.hks.harvard.edu/f...f?m=1659449668

          The text that follows seeks to make an objective reflection on the state of the art of democracy in the world and in Brazil. To begin, it explores the concept of constitutional democracy, with the conclusion that it was the victorious ideology of the 20th century. Next, it analyzes the democratic backsliding in the contemporary world, in a context that has also been referred to as democratic recession, illiberal democracies, and abusive constitutionalism, amongst others. The diagnosis of current problems involves the identification of three conceptually distinct, but often associated phenomena: populism, extremism, and authoritarianism, as well as their political, economic-social, and cultural-identity causes. [...]

          Populism

          Populism has a very tenuous ideological core, which is the artificial division of society into “we, the people” and “them, the elite”. In most cases, it bears the mark of personalistic and charismatic leaders, who come to power with an anti-establishment discourse—even when they are clearly part of it—and present themselves as “different from all that is out there.” Populism also has an anti-pluralist nature, insofar as its leaders present themselves as the only legitimate representatives of the people, excluding all the other political forces. Strictly speaking, it
          is not truly an ideology, because it is imperative that it be accompanied by some external political doctrine, whether it be conservative, liberal, or socialist. In fact, populism can be leftwing (Perón, Evo Morales, Rafael Correa) or right-wing (Orbán, Erdogan, Duterte). Within this vision, populism falls short of being an ideology, since it needs to be combined with another substantive conception, constituting rather a strategy of discourse and action. It is often associated with a nationalist stance and the exploitation of religious sentiment. Another characteristic is the need to choose an enemy, to sustain the antagonistic and belligerent discourse, whether against communism, globalization, Jews, immigration, Muslims, a party, a political leader or any other that the occasion offers[...]

          Some causes of the democratic erosion

          Several factors led to the advance of right-wing populism in numerous countries, including the United States, Great Britain (Brexit), and Brazil. It is possible to systematize these different factors into three categories: political, economic-social, and cultural-identity. The political causes lie in the crisis of representativeness of contemporary democracies, in which the electoral process fails to give adequate voice and relevance to citizenship. “They don’t represent us” is the catchphrase of the moment. In part, because the political class has become a world apart, detached from civil society, and in part because of the feeling that globalized economic-financial power is what truly calls the shots. Hence the rise of those with the anti-elite, anti-globalization, and against the “old politics” discourse. The economic and social causes lie in the large contingent of workers and professionals who lost their jobs or saw their prospects for social ascension reduced, either because of endemic poverty or because they became less relevant in the world of globalization, the new knowledge economy, and automation, which weaken more traditional industries and activities. Not to mention the austerity measures defended by international organizations and countries with world economic leadership,34 which reduce social safety nets programs.

          Finally, the cultural-identity causes: there is a contingent of people who do not profess the cosmopolitan, egalitarian, and multicultural creed that drives the progressive agenda of human rights, racial equality, feminist politics, gay marriage, defense of native populations, environmental protection and decriminalization of drugs, and the use of science as a criterion for informing public policies, among other “modern” agendas. These people, who feel disadvantaged or excluded in the world of “political correctness”, cling to traditional values that
          give them security and hope of recovering a lost hegemony.


          Sound familiar?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            "Dictator"?
            He has gradually undermined democracy during his tenure in power to the point where he is now commonly considered a dictator.

            Wiki:

            Freedom House's Nations in Transit 2020 report reclassified Hungary from a democracy to a transitional or hybrid regime.[220]...

            Orbán has passed laws, amended the constitution, and finally written a new constitution, allowing him to do what he wanted to do. Civic institutions such as courts, universities, and the apparatus necessary for free elections remain, but have been "patiently debilitated, delegitimatized, hollowed out", controlled by Orbán loyalists.[193] Domination of the media by Orbán prevents the public from hearing critics point of view. In 2022, Orbán's opponent was given but five minutes on the national television "to make his case to the voters".[193]


            One expert puts it this way:

            Orbán is the ultimate twenty-first-century dictator. Twentieth-century dictatorships were about ideology and repression: physical repression with this detestable ideology. Twenty-first-century authoritarianism works through economic means rather than physical means. So economic coercion is everywhere in Hungary. But, if you went there on vacation, you would never guess that it’s a dictatorship. And that’s because the way that Orbán exercises control is through money. Orbán has eliminated the system of welfare and unemployment insurance and so on, so that you only get those things if you pass his litmus test. With the media, his oligarchs have bought out all the media that were critical of him. They’ve consolidated the banking sector in their hands. And so this is the new form of oppression. It doesn’t look like oppression if you’re on the streets of Budapest. But if you live there and you have no money and you can’t get an income because no one will hire you, then what happens? You have to leave.

            Orban is know for forcing everyone who would oppose him out of the country by making sure they can't get a job anywhere in Hungary. He sends out long lists of names of people not to be hired. It is estimated that about 10% of the population of Hungary have been forced out of Hungary under Orban.

            FWIU, the elections have all been aboveboard.
            Hungary's 2022 election was described by observers as "neither free nor fair", with Orban's previous elections being described as "free but not fair". Orban has made hundreds of changes to electoral laws, which include things like limiting the opposition to 5 minutes of media time, using the media as a propaganda machine, gerrymandering all the electorates, and this year apparently burning the mail-in ballots for his opponents.

            Given his pork barrel spending, patronage-like political style, eroding of judicial independence, family corruption, and even anti-Americanism one would think you and other leftists would be giddy with admiration.
            Those are Republican values.

            Also gives lip service to Christian values and does not support the LGBTQ insanity.
            It's astonishing how easy US conservatives are to manipulate - Orban has seemingly never been inside a church but has found that he can make the religious zealots love him just by endorsing their religion in politics and agreeing to join them on whatever religious hate crusade they happen to be on at the moment. You guys are such suckers, so easily manipulated by these authoritarian conmen like Orban and Trump.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              He has gradually undermined democracy during his tenure in power to the point where he is now commonly considered a dictator.

              Wiki:

              Freedom House's Nations in Transit 2020 report reclassified Hungary from a democracy to a transitional or hybrid regime.[220]...

              Orbán has passed laws, amended the constitution, and finally written a new constitution, allowing him to do what he wanted to do. Civic institutions such as courts, universities, and the apparatus necessary for free elections remain, but have been "patiently debilitated, delegitimatized, hollowed out", controlled by Orbán loyalists.[193] Domination of the media by Orbán prevents the public from hearing critics point of view. In 2022, Orbán's opponent was given but five minutes on the national television "to make his case to the voters".[193]


              One expert puts it this way:

              Orbán is the ultimate twenty-first-century dictator. Twentieth-century dictatorships were about ideology and repression: physical repression with this detestable ideology. Twenty-first-century authoritarianism works through economic means rather than physical means. So economic coercion is everywhere in Hungary. But, if you went there on vacation, you would never guess that it’s a dictatorship. And that’s because the way that Orbán exercises control is through money. Orbán has eliminated the system of welfare and unemployment insurance and so on, so that you only get those things if you pass his litmus test. With the media, his oligarchs have bought out all the media that were critical of him. They’ve consolidated the banking sector in their hands. And so this is the new form of oppression. It doesn’t look like oppression if you’re on the streets of Budapest. But if you live there and you have no money and you can’t get an income because no one will hire you, then what happens? You have to leave.

              Orban is know for forcing everyone who would oppose him out of the country by making sure they can't get a job anywhere in Hungary. He sends out long lists of names of people not to be hired. It is estimated that about 10% of the population of Hungary have been forced out of Hungary under Orban.

              Hungary's 2022 election was described by observers as "neither free nor fair", with Orban's previous elections being described as "free but not fair". Orban has made hundreds of changes to electoral laws, which include things like limiting the opposition to 5 minutes of media time, using the media as a propaganda machine, gerrymandering all the electorates, and this year apparently burning the mail-in ballots for his opponents.

              Those are Republican values.

              It's astonishing how easy US conservatives are to manipulate - Orban has seemingly never been inside a church but has found that he can make the religious zealots love him just by endorsing their religion in politics and agreeing to join them on whatever religious hate crusade they happen to be on at the moment. You guys are such suckers, so easily manipulated by these authoritarian conmen like Orban and Trump.
              Alot of that sounds like Venezuela...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                Alot of that sounds like Venezuela...
                So? The Dems wouldn't in a million years invite Nicolás Maduro to speak at a Democratic conference and regard him as a dictator. Unlike the Republicans and Orban, they are not cheerleading for him and celebrating him.

                Last I looked the US (i.e. the Democratic Biden administration) still has sanctions on Venezuela, albeit with a little bit of easing them around the edges recently due to the international oil crisis and Venezuela being a potential big supplier of oil. Perhaps US conservatives should be considering sanctions on Hungary rather than cheering them on? Or would that be too principled for them?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                  Now, if it was Fidel, were he still alive....they'd be all over him.
                  Well, they have Trudeau.
                  "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                  "
                  Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    Alot of that sounds like Venezuela...
                    And here. Run afoul of the emperor (in deed or philosophy) and get audited by the IRS. Or raided by the FBI.
                    "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                    "
                    Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                      Well, they have Trudeau.
                      Ouch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                        Alot of that sounds like Venezuela...
                        Canada the last two years.



                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dirtfloor View Post
                          Orban spoke at CPAC.

                          It’s what you vote for but I wonder if it’s what you really want. Is there awareness among Christians of where you are headed?
                          We know that the US is headed to hell in a hand basket under our current political leadership.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
                            He has gradually undermined democracy during his tenure in power to the point where he is now commonly considered a dictator.
                            A good description of Joe Biden and his puppet masters.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              We know that the US is headed to hell in a hand basket under our current political leadership.
                              So, you want to clean up this mess, however you define mess, but, does that mean that you are an Orbanist and long for strong authoritarian leadership, of the more permanent kind?
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment

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