Originally posted by Mountain Man
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“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostWe'll see have to wait for the Supreme Court to make their decision, but I suspect they will determine that a president has broad discretionary authority when it comes to classification.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
Unless there's a claim in court that documents were declassified, the issue will never show up in front of the Supreme Court. And we all know that's not going to happen.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Bad Orange Man's claim that POTUS can basically declassify telepathically by a pure act of will is interesting. I think it's probably true, given that POTUS *is* the Executive branch, but without also telepathically creating observable evidence of the declassification, I wonder who has the "burden of proof" in establishing whether or not declassification occurred.
I wonder if they have made, or will make, in official presentations, the claim that the act of removing the documents, in and of itself, was de facto declassification.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI wonder if they have made, or will make, in official presentations, the claim that the act of removing the documents, in and of itself, was de facto declassification.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
That claim, that the President does not have broad discretionary power when it comes to classification, is central to DOJ's case, so it is has already been made in court.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostBad Orange Man's claim that POTUS can basically declassify telepathically by a pure act of will is interesting. I think it's probably true, given that POTUS *is* the Executive branch, but without also telepathically creating observable evidence of the declassification, I wonder who has the "burden of proof" in establishing whether or not declassification occurred.
I wonder if they have made, or will make, in official presentations, the claim that the act of removing the documents, in and of itself, was de facto declassification.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
This, again, is a question about whether or not there are limits to a president's declassification authority. As I understand it, the president can take a classified document at random and hand it to someone on the street, and it is declassified simply by his action. No formal announcement, no paper trail, no seeking the permission of subordinate agencies, it's just a done deal. Basically, it's effectively impossible for a president to violate laws governing classified information.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
Well, yes and no. He could do that. But at the same time, if he did that, without paper trail, etc. Then the person is effectively in possession of classified documents and a hope that the president backs him up when he says the president gave them to him. If the president does not, then he has no proof and any law pertaining to him and classified information will be able to be used.
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This is a really silly conversation to be having, but seeing as it's also an excuse to further delay some grading ...
I was half-listening to some YouTube videos last night when a lawyer was being interviewed who claimed this insufficiently documented declassification had been tried in court three times during the Trump administration, and it had failed all three times, including the time he himself argued a case and lost.
I'll try to find it again when I get time, but the basic logistics says it's simply not possible to declassify a document without some documentation to let the public know about it.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
Well, yes and no. He could do that. But at the same time, if he did that, without paper trail, etc. Then the person is effectively in possession of classified documents and a hope that the president backs him up when he says the president gave them to him. If the president does not, then he has no proof and any law pertaining to him and classified information will be able to be used.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
If a government document is unclassified, that means that it's available to the public. If the public can't access it, because no one knows it's unclassified, then it's, just, not unclassified.
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Originally posted by Juvenal View PostThis is a really silly conversation to be having, but seeing as it's also an excuse to further delay some grading ...
I was half-listening to some YouTube videos last night when a lawyer was being interviewed who claimed this insufficiently documented declassification had been tried in court three times during the Trump administration, and it had failed all three times, including the time he himself argued a case and lost.
I'll try to find it again when I get time, but the basic logistics says it's simply not possible to declassify a document without some documentation to let the public know about it.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Sure, you can stretch the example, but the point is that the president can do pretty much whatever he wants with classified info.
This was an issue that came up early in Trump's presidency when he mentioned something to a foreign leader that was classified, but his act of telling the foreign leader was sufficient in and of itself to render the information declassified.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
That was my point. A declassified document, with no evidence of being declassified is, for all intents and purposes, still classified. That's why so few republicans are buying into the the "The president can think it declassified" excuse.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
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- Stephen R. Donaldson
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