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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    I guess you are right, any idiot can make millions...



    That is not the point! Both were in the works before Trump ever took office. They were trying to undermine the will of the people. You know it and I know it. So stop with your inane virtue signaling...



    Really? Did that go anywhere? The point is they were after him from day one, using lies.
    This is a debate you're never going to win. Haven't you figured out Juvie's game by now? He will always suddenly be an "expert" at whatever he needs to be in order to challenge his opponents position. It's the worst sort of appeal to authority.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      I guess you are right, any idiot can make millions...
      But it takes a real idiot to get sued for billions.

      That is not the point! Both were in the works before Trump ever took office. They were trying to undermine the will of the people. You know it and I know it. So stop with your inane virtue signaling...
      A lot of things were in the works before Trump took office.

      Russian Dirt on Clinton? ‘I Love It,’ Donald Trump Jr. Said
      .
      The June 3, 2016, email sent to Donald Trump Jr. could hardly have been more explicit: One of his father’s former Russian business partners had been contacted by a senior Russian government official and was offering to provide the Trump campaign with dirt on Hillary Clinton.

      The documents “would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father,” read the email, written by a trusted intermediary, who added, “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

      If the future president’s eldest son was surprised or disturbed by the provenance of the promised material — or the notion that it was part of a continuing effort by the Russian government to aid his father’s campaign — he gave no indication.

      He replied within minutes: “If it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.”

      Four days later, after a flurry of emails, the intermediary wrote back, proposing a meeting in New York on Thursday with a “Russian government attorney.”

      Donald Trump Jr. agreed, adding that he would most likely bring along “Paul Manafort (campaign boss)” and “my brother-in-law,” Jared Kushner, now one of the president’s closest White House advisers.

      On June 9, the Russian lawyer was sitting in the younger Mr. Trump’s office on the 25th floor of Trump Tower, just one level below the office of the future president.


      Really? Did that go anywhere? The point is they were after him from day one, using lies.
      This is just too easy
      .
      Arrests made: More than 725 defendants have been arrested in nearly all 50 states and the District of Columbia. (This includes those charged in both District and Superior Court).

      Criminal charges:
      • More than 225 defendants have been charged with assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers or employees, including over 75 individualswho have been charged with using a deadly or dangerous weapon or causing serious bodily injury to an officer.
        • Approximately 140 police officers were assaulted Jan. 6 at the Capitol including about 80 U.S. Capitol Police and about 60 from the Metropolitan Police Department.
      • Approximately 10 individuals have been arrested on a series of charges that relate to assaulting a member of the media, or destroying their equipment, on Jan. 6.
      • Approximately 640 defendants have been charged with entering or remaining in a restricted federal building or grounds.
        • Over 75 defendants have been charged with entering a restricted area with a dangerous or deadly weapon.
        • More than 45 defendants have been charged with destruction of government property, and over 30 defendants have been charged with theft of government property.
      • At least 275 defendants have been charged with corruptly obstructing, influencing, or impeding an official proceeding, or attempting to do so.
      • Approximately 40 defendants have been charged with conspiracy, either: (a) conspiracy to obstruct a congressional proceeding, (b) conspiracy to obstruct law enforcement during a civil disorder, (c) conspiracy to injure an officer, or (d) some combination of the three.
      Pleas:
      • Approximately 165 individuals have pleaded guilty to a variety of federal charges, from misdemeanors to felony obstruction, many of whom will face incarceration at sentencing.
        • Approximately 145 have pleaded guilty to misdemeanors. Twenty have pleaded guilty to felonies.
        • Six of those who have pleaded guilty to felonies have pleaded to charges related to assaults on law enforcement. Four face statutory maximums of 20 years or more in prison as well as potential financial penalties. Two face statutory maximums of eight years in prison as well as potential financial penalties.
      Sentencings:
      • Approximately 70 federal defendants have had their cases adjudicated and received sentences for their criminal activity on Jan. 6. Thirty-one have been sentenced to periods of incarceration. Eighteen have been sentenced to a period of home detention, and the other defendants have been sentenced to probation with no term of incarceration.
        Public Assistance:
      • Citizens from around the country have provided invaluable assistance in identifying individuals in connection with the Jan. 6 attack. The FBI continues to seek the public’s help in identifying more than 350 individuals believed to have committed violent acts on the Capitol grounds, including over 250 who assaulted police officers.
      • Additionally, the FBI currently has 16 videos of suspects wanted for violent assaults on federal officers and one video of two suspects wanted for assaults on members of the media on January 6th and is seeking the public’s help to identify them. For images and video of the attackers, please visit https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence. Anyone with tips can call 1-800-CALL-FBI (800-225-5324) or visit tips.fbi.gov.
      That's just the count as of January, 2022. Slightly more impressive than the count of things you've gotten wrong through plain ignorance or blind partisanship on this thread, but feel free to keep on trying.

      Trump was grossly incompetent and unfit the day he took office, and grossly incompetent and unfit the day he left with boxed up classified documents recovered in August. He put his own head in the noose, and he did it knowingly.

      Don't blame the hangman.
      Last edited by Juvenal; 09-16-2022, 11:00 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        The answer, almost certainly, is nothing.
        Then the Top Secret documents can't be covered by attorney-client privilege.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

          Practically nothing. Like I said earlier, a LOT of 'classification' is dubious at best and duplicitous at worst. Intell assets and latest weapon tech are about all of the truly justifiable stuff.
          That wouldn't really justify Trump classifying his communications with his private attorneys.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
            Well, if the main complaint is that the special master is wasting time and delaying, then appealing likely will take longer...
            Seems like the appeal would be worthwhile as long as there is a chance that it could be quicker.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

              Then the Top Secret documents can't be covered by attorney-client privilege.
              Either I misunderstood your question, or you misunderstood my answer.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                That wouldn't really justify Trump classifying his communications with his private attorneys.
                Dude, that's not even alleged. You got this backwards.

                Trump's communications with his attorneys enjoy privilege as a matter of law - same as yours. It does not need to be invoked unless challenged. That means that the state has grounds to believe privilege doesn't apply in which case it can go to the court and try to prove it.

                Otherwise, privilege is attached to all communications with an attorney - yours included.

                This is really dumb - stripping Trump of his rights to play 'gotcha' is just begging to lose those same rights for everyone.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                  Then the Top Secret documents can't be covered by attorney-client privilege.
                  Stoic, stop this. Research privilege because you are talking total nonsense at this point. NOTHING in the Constitution says Top Secret documents aren't covered by privilege - and given the existence of Executive privilege, there's actually some case law pointing the opposite direction. Only the Constitution itself could govern this for a president.

                  You're getting so much mixed up it's hard to figure out what you are arguing. In this case, Trump was President and had the right to declassify as he saw fit - this is upheld by the US Supreme Court and it is blatantly obvious because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. That's because the power can only exist for the executive.

                  Bob the soldier might be a very different case - maybe. But it would have to go to a court to decide if privilege attached or not. This one is a tad iffy but it probably attaches unless the judge is a democrat - and I'm not being hyperbolic.

                  They are two very different circumstances. Trump had the power to declassify as he saw fit - period. Bob never did nor did he have a necessary right to access the documents - but he does have whistleblower protections so he might well have the right to attach privilege.

                  Wrecking freedom for everyone else because you don't like Trump is beyond the pale stupid. Attorney client privilege is CRUCIAL to a fair and impartial judiciary.

                  Dude, you're smarter than this.

                  "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                  "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                  My Personal Blog

                  My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                  Quill Sword

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    Seems like the appeal would be worthwhile as long as there is a chance that it could be quicker.
                    Are you kidding? Appellate courts decide (primarily) matters of law. This is almost never the 'swift' part of justice.

                    The DOJ is appealing - that's not to speed things up, but to slow things down. Appeals aren't fast by their nature - and a room full of lawyers arguing points of law aren't ever going to speed anything up. This is a feature, not a bug.

                    And the DOJ is 100% aware of that fact.

                    Also, there is no urgency. If there were, the DOJ wouldn't have waited 18 months until just before the midterms. Dude, use your head - this is a delaying tactic (a lot of appeals are, especially in civil court) 18 months after the fact - how exactly is this 'urgent' in any rational use of the word?
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • The DOJ and FBI really, really, really don't want anybody vetting their work. I wonder why?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        Either I misunderstood your question, or you misunderstood my answer.
                        If you can get the information from someone else, it can't be privileged. Hence no document created by anyone other than an attorney or their client can be subject to attorney-client privilege. In order to stretch that principle to include classified documents, those communications must be classified.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                          If you can get the information from someone else, it can't be privileged. Hence no document created by anyone other than an attorney or their client can be subject to attorney-client privilege. In order to stretch that principle to include classified documents, those communications must be classified.
                          I understood the question to be, "What information in those documents would pose a national security risk if it were to be made public?" And my answer was, "Almost certainly nothing."
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                            Are you kidding? Appellate courts decide (primarily) matters of law. This is almost never the 'swift' part of justice.
                            DOJ Takes a Risk to Challenge Special-Master Order in Trump Case
                            .
                            The government should prevail on its limited appeal, but probably at the cost of some delay in a matter prosecutors say is urgent.

                            Late Friday, the Justice Department filed a limited appeal of Judge Aileen Cannon’s order granting former president Donald Trump’s request for a special master to conduct a privilege review of documents seized by the FBI last month from his Mar-a-Lago estate, pursuant to a search warrant.

                            Specifically, the government’s appeal to the Eleventh Circuit, styled as a “motion for partial stay pending appeal,” narrowly challenges those parts of Judge Cannon’s rulings that (a) preclude investigators from using approximately 100 seized documents with classified markings in connection with DOJ’s criminal investigation of Trump; and (b) compel the government to submit those documents ...

                            They haven't actually appealed, yet. If they get the stay, they'll be able to continue their investigations.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                              DOJ Takes a Risk to Challenge Special-Master Order in Trump Case
                              .
                              The government should prevail on its limited appeal, but probably at the cost of some delay in a matter prosecutors say is urgent.

                              Late Friday, the Justice Department filed a limited appeal of Judge Aileen Cannon’s order granting former president Donald Trump’s request for a special master to conduct a privilege review of documents seized by the FBI last month from his Mar-a-Lago estate, pursuant to a search warrant.

                              Specifically, the government’s appeal to the Eleventh Circuit, styled as a “motion for partial stay pending appeal,” narrowly challenges those parts of Judge Cannon’s rulings that (a) preclude investigators from using approximately 100 seized documents with classified markings in connection with DOJ’s criminal investigation of Trump; and (b) compel the government to submit those documents ...

                              They haven't actually appealed, yet. If they get the stay, they'll be able to continue their investigations.
                              Riight.... Not a delaying tactic, nosiree...


                              And this is what the article said - first paragraph:

                              The Department of Justice appealed on Friday a judge’s ruling that temporarily barred the government from reviewing the confiscated Mar-a-Lago raid records as part of a criminal probe into former president Trump and appointed an independent arbiter to review them.


                              Appealing a stay is an appeal, jerk. Such an appeal may not go to the appellate court - first - but this one did. Third paragraph:

                              “The district court has entered an unprecedented order enjoining the Executive Branch’s use of its own highly classified records in a criminal investigation with direct implications for national security,” the DOJ wrote, petitioning the 11th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in Atlanta for a stay on the lower court’s ruling.

                              *emphasis mine

                              This is what we call an appeal. It is on a point of law that the DOJ thought could not wait until after the trial. So they appealed directly to the 11th Circuit to overturn a ruling. They are appealing the ruling, not the as yet presumably non-existent verdict, which a non-existent jerk like yourself should have understood.

                              But my point stands - an appeal went to the appellate court where a roomful of lawyers will argue points of law and slow down this supposedly urgent process.

                              The 11th Circuit isn't known for its sense of humor so this may backfire big time.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Appealing a stay is an appeal, jerk.
                                MOTION FOR PARTIAL STAY PENDING APPEAL

                                Maybe you should read it.

                                Comment

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