Stasi Raid Mar-a-Lago

[Starlight]

The President's power over such documents is final. He calls it declassified

Trump isn't President. He would have had to declassify them when he was. That would have its own set of issues for him. None of the Trump team legal filings have said that the did declassify them, in fact they have said the opposite, requiring that the Special Master they want has to have security clearance to view these classified documents.

and shares it with his attorney under privilege, it's declassified and privileged.

An attorney seeing a document doesn't make it privileged. It's only the communication between the client and the lawyer that is privileged. So say, among the seized documents, is a printed out email chain that is something like:

Trump to lawyer: "Hey, so I've stolen a bunch of government secrets and am selling them to the Saudis. That's Totally Fine right? Here, have a look at some of them, attached."
Lawyer to Trump: "No, Mr Trump, that's treason. I strongly advise not doing that. Please don't send me classified info I'm not cleared to see."
Trump to lawyer: "Oopsy. That Saudi Golf tournament was last week and I sold 48 of them then. Guess I'll just hold on to the rest for now."
Lawyer to Trump: "Mr Trump you should probably return the rest to the government."
Trump to Lawyer: "No, I'm good here."

That conservation would be privileged and would need to be filtered out by the filter team and could not be used by the investigators nor submitted in court as proof of Trump's guilt because it's communications between the person and his lawyer. The original classified documents themselves remain the government's property and are not privileged.

I'm not sure what the status of the copies of the classified documents attached in the email would be - well they'd definitely be classified, not sure if they'd also be privileged, but almost certainly the rules around classified documents would outweigh the rules around privileged documents and they would legally be the government's documents.

[CivilDiscourse]

Trump isn't President. He would have had to declassify them when he was. That would have its own set of issues for him. None of the Trump team legal filings have said that the did declassify them, in fact they have said the opposite, requiring that the Special Master they want has to have security clearance to view these classified documents.

An attorney seeing a document doesn't make it privileged. It's only the communication between the client and the lawyer that is privileged. So say, among the seized documents, is a printed out email chain that is something like:

Trump to lawyer: "Hey, so I've stolen a bunch of government secrets and am selling them to the Saudis. That's Totally Fine right? Here, have a look at some of them, attached."
Lawyer to Trump: "No, Mr Trump, that's treason. I strongly advise not doing that. Please don't send me classified info I'm not cleared to see."
Trump to lawyer: "Oopsy. That Saudi Golf tournament was last week and I sold 48 of them then. Guess I'll just hold on to the rest for now."
Lawyer to Trump: "Mr Trump you should probably return the rest to the government."
Trump to Lawyer: "No, I'm good here."

That conservation would be privileged and would need to be filtered out by the filter team and could not be used by the investigators nor submitted in court as proof of Trump's guilt because it's communications between the person and his lawyer. The original classified documents themselves remain the government's property and are not privileged.

I'm not sure what the status of the copies of the classified documents attached in the email would be - well they'd definitely be classified, not sure if they'd also be privileged, but almost certainly the rules around classified documents would outweigh the rules around privileged documents and they would legally be the government's documents.

You do have a fervent imagination.

[Mountain Man]

You do have a fervent imagination.

More like fevered.

[Stoic]

You do have a fervent imagination.

True, but he makes a good point. Just showing the documents to the lawyers does not make them privileged.

[CivilDiscourse]

True, but he makes a good point. Just showing the documents to the lawyers does not make them privileged.

That is true, never claimed otherwise. You and I have already discussed that classified documents CAN be privileged information though.

[Stoic]

That is true, never claimed otherwise.

You didn't, but the person he was responding to did.

You and I have already discussed that classified documents CAN be privileged information though.

Yes, though it is very unlikely, and AFAIK Trump's attorneys haven't claimed that any of them are privileged.

[NorrinRadd]

Trump isn't President. He would have had to declassify them when he was. That would have its own set of issues for him. None of the Trump team legal filings have said that the did declassify them, in fact they have said the opposite, requiring that the Special Master they want has to have security clearance to view these classified documents.

The basis of Bad Orange Man's position is the first sentence of Article II of the Constitution: POTUS *is* the Executive Branch. That being the case, POTUS stands above any rules created *within* the Executive Branch, other than those specifically stated in the Constitution.

As far as "legal filings" are concerned, BOM's chief attorney in the matter, "James Trusty" (clearly a hilarious name for any lawyer), told The Great One (Mark Levin) that they are carefully pursuing a particular path of litigation in setting up the arguments they ultimately want to make.

[Mountain Man]

The basis of Bad Orange Man's position is the first sentence of Article II of the Constitution: POTUS *is* the Executive Branch. That being the case, POTUS stands above any rules created *within* the Executive Branch, other than those specifically stated in the Constitution.

As far as "legal filings" are concerned, BOM's chief attorney in the matter, "James Trusty" (clearly a hilarious name for any lawyer), told The Great One (Mark Levin) that they are carefully pursuing a particular path of litigation in setting up the arguments they ultimately want to make.

You can read an analysis of the filing here:

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...ng-everything/

According to Mike Davis, former aid to Gorsuch, President Trump's team has a strong legal case.

[Gondwanaland]

The basis of Bad Orange Man's position is the first sentence of Article II of the Constitution: POTUS *is* the Executive Branch. That being the case, POTUS stands above any rules created *within* the Executive Branch, other than those specifically stated in the Constitution.

As far as "legal filings" are concerned, BOM's chief attorney in the matter, "James Trusty" (clearly a hilarious name for any lawyer), told The Great One (Mark Levin) that they are carefully pursuing a particular path of litigation in setting up the arguments they ultimately want to make.

Except he's not POTUS. Biden is.

[Teallaura]

It sounds like you are saying that if I take a document that I do not own, and share it with my lawyer, it becomes privileged and no one can take it away from me.

I'm pretty sure that's not true, so please tell me what you are really saying.

If you are President of the United States and have declassified that document, yes, because you have that right as a function of your office. It's also necessary to prevent public servants of all levels from having access removed to legitimate evidence of either the wrongdoing of others or to prove their own innocence.

Works for employees, too. Whistleblowers can take documents to prove malfeasance without repercussions. You can also print your document at the office and take it home with you to share with your lawyer to prove whatever you are trying to prove. You have to act in good faith but whistleblower protections are pretty robust. Also, paper be cheap so showing injury from losing a document is tough outside industrial espionage.

Once privileged, there are few recourses and they mostly involve proving to a court that the document should not have privilege attached. If a court agrees, then and ONLY THEN is the document no longer privileged.

Now, it is possible for you and your attorney to end privilege, usually once the case is closed.

And yes, you and your attorney get to keep it.

[Teallaura]

Here's a very interesting analysis that aligns with your comments. The short version is that every single document marked classified is relevant to President Trump's lawsuit against Hillary et al, meaning that all of it is declassified and all of it covered by attorney/client privilege.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...inton-lawsuit/

Thanks!

[Teallaura]

True, but he makes a good point. Just showing the documents to the lawyers does not make them privileged.

Er, yes, it does, if those documents pertain to the action at hand. That sounds limited but the courts are pretty liberal with the definition of 'pertain' where privilege is involved. If it's in the parking lot of the ballpark, the courts will usually allow it.

Proving privilege should not be attached is a bear. This is a feature, not a bug.

[Stoic]

Er, yes, it does, if those documents pertain to the action at hand. That sounds limited but the courts are pretty liberal with the definition of 'pertain' where privilege is involved. If it's in the parking lot of the ballpark, the courts will usually allow it.

Proving privilege should not be attached is a bear. This is a feature, not a bug.

Taking a document that has nothing to do with communication between you and your lawyer, and showing (or giving) that document to your lawyer, does not make it privileged.

If you write something to your lawyer about that document, then what you wrote would be privileged. But not the document that you wrote about.

[NorrinRadd]

Except he's not POTUS. Biden is.

Right. So one thing they will need to sort out is whether Brandon had officially taken office when Bad Orange Man removed the classified docs. If BOM was still legally POTUS, then the very act of taking them would constitute declassification, however ridiculously unwise it might have been. If Brandon had legally replaced him when the docs were taken, BOM would have to be able to reasonably show he had waved his wand or shaken his booty or whatever to signal he was declassifying them.

Aside from "classified" docs, they will need to sort out the extent to which a current POTUS can revoke "Executive Privilege" of a former POTUS.

[NorrinRadd]

Tucker's show from Mon. 9/12/2022. I can't get the clips at Fox News to play, so here's the whole show until and unless YT removes it:
• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderated By: sparko

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The monologue and first guest are relevant to Posts #2018 and #2027.